 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
I have made this point before.
Basically the steepest groomed black in Austria is the one in Mayrhofen called Harakiri with a sign-posted gradient of 78%, or a vertical distance of 0.78 unit against a horizontal distance of 1 unit or simply arctanagent of 0.78 or 37.95 degree, pretty mild by the extreme skiers' standard. At that gradient the piste basher has to be roped or drawn by a steel wire to groom the run. That is how Harakiri is sold to the public.
This would suggest if a skier wants something steeper he/she is unlikely to get it from a groomed piste.
I can imagine a piste basher may be able to groom a short surface steeper than 78% but that could be about the limit where it may not be safe to operate a piste basher as it must slide down over the loose snow eventually when the gradient keeps on increasing.
Additionally (my own experience) if a piste is groomed then it must have a width equal to the girth of a piste basher. This means on a narrow section, with mountain on one side and a cliff on the other, a nervous skier like me can still rely on a sufficient width to do the turns.
From observation I have the impression of that some of the ungroomed France black look steeper than Harakiri. I myself have not found any groomed black in Switzerland, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Scotland, Canadian (single diamond) or Japan that matches Harakiri in length as well as gradient. For ungroomed piste there must be plenty around though as extreme skiers often do gradient steeper than 45 and 60 degree according to some video clips. I believe some double diamond black in the North America can be more challenging but they don't appear to be groomed piste though.
In conclusion if a piste is not groomed then its gradient may be difficult to judge, whereas in a groomed black its maximum gradient would be guaranteed by the operating limit of the piste basher, say around 78%.
Kitzbuhel does display the gradient for its seriously steep black which are groomed and milder than Harakiri.
The above is my own observation. It would be interesting to hear facts and analyses of others.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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saikee, I don't have enough experience of skiing in Austria to compare, but I'm just a bit surprised that you think France has steeper runs than the other Euro ski countries. My assumption was that overall there wasn't a great deal of difference in the kind of terrain that ski resorts are developed on, but maybe I'm wrong to conclude that.
I'm also unsure why you think that the less steep runs of Austria, Switzerland and Italy make them safer countries to ski in. I think I must be missing something here?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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saikee, I think your analysis of grooming is pretty spot on. I have skied Harakari, and it does have a short steep section (be easier if it wasn't groomed  ). I also know of a few winch-cat groomed balck diamond runs around here in the Pacific Northwest (Crystal, Bachelor, Hood meadows, Schweitzer) which are in the same ballpark steep-wise - I'll measure a few with my inclinometer sometime for our collective education.
This link below gives some great picks of some crazy Oregon cat drivers grooming a double-black diamond on Mt Hood - - they don't do that very often (fortunately!)
http://www.skihood.com/cs/blogs/meadows/archive/2006/12/30/A-Heather-Canyon-Story-to-Remember-_2D00_-December-30_2C00_-2006.aspx
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rob@rar, not sure Saikee was implying France had steeper runs - just marked black runs in France are not always groomed (sometimes because they are too steep). From my still limited experience in Austria, there are marked ski routes that are pretty darn steep at places like St Anton, Lech, Ischgl, Tux Valley resorts. These are equivalent to ungroomed French runs. It's just a matter of different conventions, I think. In North America some marked double black diamonds include cliffs and mandatory air!!! Groom that
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
saikee, I don't have enough experience of skiing in Austria to compare, but I'm just a bit surprised that you think France has steeper runs than the other Euro ski countries. My assumption was that overall there wasn't a great deal of difference in the kind of terrain that ski resorts are developed on, but maybe I'm wrong to conclude that.
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My impression is that France and Switzerland tend to have more steep but usable terrain than Austria or Italy do.
You certainly don't tend to have as many blacks (groomed or ungroomed), although there are exceptions, of course.
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I'm also unsure why you think that the less steep runs of Austria, Switzerland and Italy make them safer countries to ski in. I think I must be missing something here? |
I think that it is easier to go too quickly on groomed terrain than on ungroomed, thus leading to higher speed crashes. So I would argue that grooming of high angle terrain actually makes it less safe.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
I think that it is easier to go too quickly on groomed terrain than on ungroomed, thus leading to higher speed crashes. So I would argue that grooming of high angle terrain actually makes it less safe. |
agree 100%!!
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| I think that it is easier to go too quickly on groomed terrain than on ungroomed, thus leading to higher speed crashes. So I would argue that grooming of high angle terrain actually makes it less safe. |
Absolutely agreed.
The other issue with steep groomed runs is what happens if (when?) you fall. Falling on hard-packed morning snow on a steep section can lead to a very lengthy and dangerous high-speed slide; without grooming you'd quickly come to an unceremonious halt as you planted your face in a humungous mogul. I personally feel at my most safe on steep ungroomed runs with plenty of trees and powder - the dangers are obvious, so I go slowly and there are few others skiers to hit me. I feel most vulnerable on perfectly groomed reds and blues because the temptation to ski too fast is just too strong.
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| Quote: |
alex_heney wrote:
I think that it is easier to go too quickly on groomed terrain than on ungroomed, thus leading to higher speed crashes. So I would argue that grooming of high angle terrain actually makes it less safe.
agree 100%!!
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I cannot dispute this if the users decide to go fast.
However when one is unleashed on a freshly groomed black piste (say in the morning on a quiet/deserted resort at certain time of the season, say for example the Olympic run piste No. 21 in Sansicario of Milky Way) one may find skiing such a smooth black is probably easier than a normal rough red.
My suggestion here is a groomed black is easier to tackle than an ungroomed black. Since Italian, Switzerland and Austria like to groom their black and France has more ungroomed black then piste users not chasing after off piste could find an easier life by staying away from France.
Again this is my own experience as I find red runs are safer than the blue and the black is also safer than the red because piste users going to red and black runs tend to have ability more matching the grades of the runs. It is extremely rare to find a black run conggested with moving skiers especially outside France. I suppose ungroomed black can be even safer because there are even less users there. Given the same snow the condition on the black runs is normally better than others because they have the least traffic.
Not a good skier myself but I prefer a quiet black than a crowded red or even a rushing blue because if an accident happens on the black it will most likely be my own fault which I can control. On a crowded piste my luck depends on the other piste users' good will and the exercising of care.
It is possible with the amount of visitors in France skiing on the black runs could become less safe if the French decides to groom all their black. Elsewhere it is different because the majority of the piste is always intentionally groomed and people seeking a higher thrill simply go to the ski routes.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 14-02-09 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gortonator,
It is interesting to see your photos of grooming the piste with the winch cats. The gradient from your photos I estimate to be around 70% or about 35 degree. This angle ties in with the information described in Harakiri.
Depending on how the snow base is formed it is possible to groom gradients much steeper than reported but a base no matter how good can still be overtopped by fresh snow to form a loose layer. Thus for safety reasons I wouldn't have expected a groomer to work to its limit all the time. The safety requirements of the operating procedure should stop the groomer well before the condition becomes unsafe under all possible weather conditions.
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| saikee wrote: |
gortonator,
It is interesting to see your photos of grooming the piste with the winch cats. The gradient from your photos I estimate to be around 70% or about 35 degree. This angle ties in with the information described in Harakiri.
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dunno - I have skied it and its steep. Someone in the blog comments says 50 degrees, but I don't think it's that steep. Maybe somewhere in low 40's? But next time I'm at Meadows and Heather is open, I will measure. I'm a scientist - hate speculation
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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MissRibena, Not been to 3V, but have heard that aside from Meribel (which is supposed to be full of beered-up toffs) it's supposed to be very good.
Went to La Plagne (Paradiski) for my first two holidays and loved it; very pleasant, no yobs, no queues, and very nice people in the resort. Good weather helped, as did a shedload of snow to kick the week off. Espace Killy was very much the same but with even better terrain, so no, mega-resorts aren't all bad.
France is expensive anyway, as is anywhere using the Euro, but in every resort you just need to hunt around and you'll find cheap, good eateries and cheap bars that aren't full of to$$ers all there on Daddy's credit card!! My missus is sold on France because it's easy to get to and the French are pretty savvy when it comes to offering everything for visitors and to be honest, it'll have be a special deal to drag me away from the French Alps when it comes to booking for March.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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La Tania has more night life and more choices to ski back to resort - green, blue or red than Le Praz. Lifts are faster to the summit to choose between heading to Meribel or Courchevel too.
All the bands that play the Rond Point / Le Pub etc in Meribel play at The Ski Lodge in La Tania plus live music at The Chrome, Taiga and Telemark bars too. Currently 3 Euros a pint from 4-7pm - as cheap as it gets in the 3V I reckon. As for groomed runs, you can pick up a list of the runs that have been groomed over night from the La Tania gondola first thing in the morning.
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Thanks Specialman.
I've just booked and am off to Le Praz/Courchevel 1300 having read LechBob's report! So I'm all excited. Might even get a lesson to help me improve my mogul technique. Being from Ireland, at least I don't have the exchange rate issues to worry about but the prices can still be mad.
I've never had so much faffing about booking a holiday as this; what with redundant MrRibena and the cancellation of the original holiday, mad time-off issues at work - but it's a sign of the times I suppose. All the snowheads can rest easy that I won't be wrecking their heads about any more potential destinations for a while
Now it's on to web-cam watch and snow dancing!
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You know it makes sense.
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My tendancy is to avoid some of the bigger French places unless the snow is very good -as if we can choose that mostly - and then the expanse make the off-piste worth going there...ie, VT...avoid like the plague but the Off-Piste will make the trip worthwhile, IMV.
But maybe it is the trafiic as with the exception of Espace Killy which I visited in very low season, pre Xmas, this year, I'd say the piste work tends to be not great. Now, I shouldn't care, but couldn't help noiticing on a recent trip to a large area in France that the grooming wasn't what I would call good.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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MissRibena, enjoy - Courcheval is one on my list for March
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Poster: A snowHead
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Courchevel has lots of great skiing; just beware of those restaurants that look like any other but charge £12 for a hot chocolate!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks pam w, I've heard so many horror stories about prices that it's probably going to turn me into a total tightwad! Probably just as well I'm going alone really
Specialman, if you make it, let me know as I'll be eagerly trying to shake off my billy-no-mates status.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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MissRibena, the way my group is dropping like flies, it'll be me on me lonesome - even the missus don't want to go with me anymore!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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MissRibena, they're not all super-expensive. Some are just ordinarily-expensive. 
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FAQ
