 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
Don't like the gorilla turn....ugly, ugly, ugly..............but I'd use it if it was the only way to get them round in deep snow...and I was kind of stuck,
that wouldn't be trouble to me..... but hopefully I don't have to ..there are other ways that I think I can adopt... I do recall an arm punch which works...and has the same end result as bringing the shoulder round, but of course, you soon want to quieten the body...
I think that people should build up a variety of ways to turn and adopt as and when..... I agree it doesn't want to be a core turn.
It comes down to this, AFAIC... you have your basic ( good ) ski style which you return to as much as poss..and you adopt a more radical/extreme position to get something to work..the goal being to adopt your basic ski style almost everywhere so these 'departures' decrease.
Beggars and choosers...depends which situation you are in....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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JT, sure, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. As you said earlier, you start with the basics and improvise when necessary. But you wouldn't teach a 'gorilla turn' to a novice because while it might sort of work on the bunny slope it's going to be fairly destructive to your skiing if that's what you revert to when the going gets tough. Shoulder swinging comes naturally to many people because it's a good way o get their skis past the fall line quickly. It can very easily and very quickly become their standard turn style. That should be sorted out as soon as possible IMO. There's a big difference between technical instruction and tactical instruction.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've had lessons in 4/5 different resorts in Switzerland and the shoulder-swinging thing is, in my experience, unique to Wengen.
I will never forget questioning an instructor there and his justification of it being that ' it helped seeing who was coming downhill behind you'. He was English by the way.
That is no reflection on Ronald by the way who is obviously open-minded and keen as mustard and not the instructor concerned if anyone thought that.
Maggi .. that was the second worst lesson ever, dispiriting but then again conditions were awful and he didnt try and teach us anything!
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Agenterre, talking with easiski (Wengen, 2 evenings in L2A) and doing my qualifications in Austria sure as hell makes you a lot more open-minded.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have a video from the 80's / early 90's? in which a Swiss instructor is teaching beginner powder skiers to turn by "punching" an arm high into the air (as JT describes above?) with a lot of shoulder movement so it seems like this has been going on a long time. 
However, I was with an aspirant guide from the local Swiss ski school last winter and he certainly didn't ski like that or advocate it to anyone.
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Agenterre, you mean you expect the video to hail from the 60's rather than the 80's? I'll try to find it although my brain doesn't seem to remember where I've stored things as well as it once did 
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Yoda, .. as the ole saying goes .. if you remember the 60s , you weren't there.
Just a comment on Wengen .. shabbiest, tawdriest, worst lift system, most poorly-groomed, dead ( and I speak as an old fart who is in bed by 10) resort in the Alps ( IMHO!!) saved by the 3 Grand Ladies looking down on it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Agenterre, otherwise OK?
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laundryman, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, and to confuse you even more you can drive the inside hip forward to deliberately create early counter 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, I can't thank you enough for bringing the term 'Gorilla' into this
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| I went to the ski school and spoke to the director who gave me a little book of their techinique and informed me that the WC skiers ski like this! I went straight back to the hotel and looked at Ron Le Master's site to check (Ronald was there), and - I was right! They don't! |
I didn't realise that you had spoken to the ski school about it. Did you get the impression that this was a local thing or something which came through the Swiss system more generally?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| JT, I can't thank you enough for bringing the term 'Gorilla' into this |
It's a pretty accurate description though!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A gorilla moves his entire torse and arms from right to left. He doesn't counter. His body faces the way he's going. Like a French ski instructor?
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rob@rar,
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So whether you are square to your skis or your body faces more down the fall line will depend much on the radius of the turn that you are doing
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That's what I was intimating above, in relation to short turns on a steep slope.
easiski,
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Modern skis do like to be driven, and you can drive them better if you're facing the same way.
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That makes sense in relation to what I was being told the other week - particularly since I was, in fact, only just learning how to drive.
easiski,
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In order to maintain pressure (sorry V and edge hold during the turn you need to counter. We no longer need to face right down the valley like we used to and we normally finish the turn much 'squarer' to the skis than in days of yore
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That also makes sense and is consistent with this
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| Counter and arc to arc skiing go well together |
from FastMan.
OK, I think that's un-confused me, thanks all. At least most people seem to agree that it's a bad idea to throw one's shoulders around. In fact, that must be just about the only bad habit I haven't acquired! 
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| OK, I think that's un-confused me, thanks all. At least most people seem to agree that it's a bad idea to throw one's shoulders around. In fact, that must be just about the only bad habit I haven't acquired! |
The good 'counter' is with the hips; the bad 'counter-rotation' is with the shoulders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So I assume I would be better off saving my hard earned cash for lessons with Prosneige in April in VT than in Switzerland over 1/2 term.
I now have to live down a certain someone coining the term 'my little gorilla' 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| So I assume I would be better off saving my hard earned cash for lessons with Prosneige in April in VT than in Switzerland over 1/2 term. |
You could ask your guy in Moerlialp why he is asking you to swing your shoulders. Having seen the comments in this and the other thread you will be able to understand whether he is talking sense or nonsense. Have to say that if anyone tried to teach me to swing my shoulders to make my skis turn I'd run a mile!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
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The good 'counter' is with the hips; the bad 'counter-rotation' is with the shoulders.
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I realise that now. The Glossary is misleading in this respect. 
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I'm incredulous at this shoulder-swinging stuff.
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I'm incredulous at this shoulder-swinging stuff. |
Welcome to the Incredulous Club 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, As you should be!
rob@rar, Indeed - my reaction was even more incredulous.
Megamum, No save it for summer and fast & easy!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, another useful thing I was taught the other week, was to be discriminating in taking advice - any tips that patently don't work should not be followed (said the Scots guru). Easier said than done, sometimes, but I did see the point.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
| He told me that this was the new swiss system and that it was based on how the WC skiers ski. |
When I come across a one week skier that skis in a similar manner to a WC skier (carved, long radius turns at 40kph)... I'm not sure why that situation would make any difference anyway - despite the top skiers staying more in line with the skis they still don't initiate with the upper body, so either way the reasoning is at least bemusing to me.
| easiski wrote: |
| rob@rar, Indeed - my reaction was even more incredulous.) |
I'm not sure whether my reaction was 'incredulous' exactly. I believe what I actually did was start laughing, and then have a rant about it to andy, who was unfortunate enough to be sat next to me on the chairlift at the time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, older and slightly wiser these days I would tend to agree with:
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another useful thing I was taught the other week, was to be discriminating in taking advice- any tips that patently don't work should not be followed
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However, when you are in the situation I was where the 'iffy' teaching technique is the only thing you have been exposed to, it is getting you down the hill and you are convinced that it is your own fear which is preventing you from progressing, then you have no way of knowing that you are being incorrectly taught.
By analogy I can ride a horse - I have been on horses since I was 4 years old, and can get a horse to do most things whilst staying on its back - by any stretch of the imagination I make a fairly good job of staying on a horse and controlling it. If I was to put BMF_Skier on a horse (which might be hillarious in itself) and teach him to ride there is a fair chance he could end up riding a horse as well as I do - if he never went to a different riding school he would think that my method was the correct way of doing it, and yet it is not - things have moved on since I learned and the modern method of teaching varies in a lot of ways to how I learned nearly 40 years ago.
I guess what I am getting at is until you know that there is more than one possible way of doing something as a novice you are likely to believe what you are initially shown in the absence of any better method being presented.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 9-02-09 23:12; edited 1 time in total
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Megamum, I agree, not always easy to differentiate between good advice and bad. But some of the pudding is proved in the eating - if it works and you know why it should work and you can feel it working for you (as I actually experienced the sensation that it was easier to 'drive' my skis if I was pointing the same way) then it's a fairly safe bet that the advice is OK.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, that wouldn't quite work in this case because swinging your shoulders around when you're on easy slopes and skiing slowly does work, sort of (it will turn your skis a bit). But it's a bad habit to get into because it makes control when skiing steeper or faster much more difficult; it doesn't provide a foundation for further learning.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Ron Le Master's site to check (Ronald was there), and - I was right! They don't!
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Is Ronald Ron?
By the way, the only time I had a French snowboard lesson the instructor taught me to turn the board by turning my shoulders and outstretched arms. Because I had read around the subject a bit (SO much easier than actually doing it.....) I knew this wasn't the most efficient way, and that I should be steering with my feet, a la McNab. I watch a lot of snowboarders and instructors from the chairlifts (also a lot easier than actually doing it) and I don't think many, if any, of the instructors I've seen are teaching foot steering. That's my excuse for not taking any more snowboard lessons.
One of these days I shall re-read this thread, and concentrate on understanding it. In the meantime I shall continue to sit in my armchair and watch "advanced balance skills". With a glass of something.
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| pam w wrote: |
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Ron Le Master's site to check (Ronald was there), and - I was right! They don't!
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Is Ronald Ron?
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No, different people.
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Megamum, What's your problem with the word 'gorilla'... ?? everyone knows what is means in this context...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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JT, I'm sure everyone does know what it means in this context, but you haven't got someone now calling you 'my little gorilla'
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FAQ
and edge hold during the turn you need to counter. We no longer need to face right down the valley like we used to and we normally finish the turn much 'squarer' to the skis than in days of yore. Modern skis do like to be driven, and you can drive them better if you're facing the same way. However none of this is shoulder rotation to initiate and continue the turn and I've never seen a swiss 9or any other) WC racer doing anything like it. 