Poster: A snowHead
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Just received this message on the Eaglenet, so thought it might be of interest....
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A number of resorts in Switzerland have installed fixed equipment for practising and refining your transceiver search techniques. There is one at Zinal, one at St. Antönien-Partnun, one at Andermatt and doubtless there will be others.
We used the one at Andermatt, below the mid-station on the Gemsstock. You can select the number of buried 'victims' and set a time before the buried transmitter is switched off, and the 40 x 60cm box that contains the transmitter must be located and switched off by probe (no digging permitted). We spent an hour there (the Army parties around had priority), and I was pleased that three out of four of the party were able to locate (though not dig out) the 'victim' within our control time of 10 min.
The depth of burial was around 1.5 metres, which is much more that is usually achieved with our usual ad hoc practices, and this showed up some drawbacks to the old style analogue devices that most of us were using. It proved difficult to detect the point of loudest signal with the sort of precision we had previously been used to, and we came to the conclusion that it would be quicker to narrow the search area to a square of approx. 1.5m side, and then locate the victim by systematic probing, using up to 3 probers if available.
We never got to practise with even 2 victims, but the results there would have been interesting.
I would urge anyone at a resort with such training installations to make as much use of them as much as they can. The situation is quite realistic, and one soon finds one is not as 'expert' as one had believed |
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 4-02-09 20:42; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's one in Les Arcs, at the top of the TransArc gondola. Used it a couple of days ago, searching for 2 victims in 12 minutes (straightforward and successful finds on both search patterns with my Mammut Pulse transceiver). You have to probe the 'victim' 3 times to sound the buzzer which indicates a successful find. The site is on a fair slope, so wading up to the top of it in fresh snow if that's where your transceiver takes you is exhausting work, especially when you are trying to beat the clock.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There's one in Verbier on the skiers' left of La Chaux just above the jumbo. Practice is salutary!
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rob@rar, I was there when the snow was thigh deep... boy was I sweating wading about in it
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scarpa, it always amazes me how physically demanding the search is, and that's without having to dig or being scared to death because your best mate is under the snow. I hope to God...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One in Meribel-Mottaret, just above the Plan de Mains chair
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rob@rar, especially when you are running out of time and can't seem to home in on that last one. Great practice though... I'll grab the chance any time I can.
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There's also one in Courchevel below the Suisses chairlift. Well worth spending time there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Followup message from Phil Ingle, discussing use and accuracy of analog / digi TXs
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More recently I have been doing training for the winter part of my AMM (French IML) where we spent 3 full days working with transceivers with very experienced tutors. It was very interesting and very worthwhile.
There were a few key points that I noted.
1 - We generally split transceivers into 2 categories, analogue and digital. We should split them into 3 categories.
Analogue, 1st generation digital and 2nd generation digital.
2 - Analogue and 2nd generation (which are the Pulse and the Ortovox S1) are good for multiple burials. 1st generation digital (DTS Tracker and the red Barryvox) are very bad for multiple burials. It is important whatever transceiver you have to practice multiple burials, but it is critical that you practice a lot with 1st generation digital.
There was a train of thought when these were produced that by using safe techniques you would only have one person at a time buried.
Experience and statistics show us that this is not generally the case. I cant stress enough how much you should practice multiple burials if you are using a 1st generation .
3 - Analogue have the best search radius. On lots of tests the analogues tended to have 40 to 50m search radius whereas the digitals tended to have 30 to 40m
4 - digitals, both first and 2nd generation were the fastest with people with no expereince for single burials.
5 - after 3 days of training it didnt matter which unit was used, single burials were found by everyone in around 1 minute.
6 - even after 3 days of training people with 1st generations were unable to find double burials in 15 minutes
7 - after 3 days of training people with analogue and 2nd generation were able to find double burials in less than 5 minutes
My overall recommendation would be that if you are going to be touring a lot then you should use an analogue transceiver and train well. that way you can cover an avalanche zone quicker (better search radius).
If you are going to be touring less frequently and as such will train less often then get a 2nd generation digital.
If you have a 1st generation digital, i would suggest that you retire it and buy either an analogue or a 2nd generation as your touring and budget allow. personally I would not like to put my life in the hands of someone using a 1st generation digital transciever in a group situation, and would like to see before doing any touring that they could manage a double burial.
But overall recommendation is train a lot. before you go on a trip train at home - in the autumn you can use leaves to hide transceivers. then on a trip spend at least the first morning training, and any spare afternoons spent hanging around outside huts. |
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geoffers, thanks for posting Phil's comments. In my very limited experience I reached similar conclusions about the merits of the different types of transceiver.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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geoffers wrote: |
Followup message from Phil Ingle, discussing use and accuracy of analog / digi TXs
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There was a train of thought when these were produced that by using safe techniques you would only have one person at a time buried.
Experience and statistics show us that this is not generally the case. I cant stress enough how much you should practice multiple burials if you are using a 1st generation .
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It is nowhere near as clear cut as this.
If we take the French statistics (and it appears that data from Austria and Switzerland is similar) then only 12% of incidents involve multiple burials and true multiple burials, where victims are close enough together that special search techniques are required are rarer still. That is not to discount multiple burials but the latest thinking is non-professional backcountry travellers should focus their time on single burial scenarios and efficient shovelling techniques then on managing the search and rescue process.
Here are a couple of starting points if you want to research this.
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0831-multiple-burials-revisited/
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0817-multiple-avalanche-burials-rarer-than-you-think/
You also have to have sufficient manpower to actually rescue multiple victims before they suffocate. That implies two shovellers for every buried victim.
I've recently translated and proofed a detailed article on the subject for the French Avalanche Research Institute which I can email anyone who is interested. Otherwise I suggest if people are interested to do some more research.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 4-02-09 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davidof wrote: |
... efficient shovelling techniques |
Any hints and tips on this?
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, thanks for the info, as helpful as always. For me multiple burials is a very real issue this season as I'll be assessed on my search techniques. Just glad I got a Pulse.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar wrote: |
davidof, thanks for the info, as helpful as always. For me multiple burials is a very real issue this season as I'll be assessed on my search techniques. Just glad I got a Pulse. |
Yes I realise that and professionals such as you and Phil have different responsibilities.
I don't want to discourage people from practising multiple burials if they have the time and certainly Phil's main theme of knowing your beacon is very important but if you are not skiing with a guide then safe travel / avalanche avoidance should be the primary goal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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My reply was to the Eagle ski club which are a ski touring group. You have a greater than 1 in 4 chance of being caught in a multiple burial scenario if you are ski touring or snow shoeing (data supplied by our instructors, based on the ANENA stats i assume).
Under a few inches of snow you can not move and are unlikely to survive if it takes more than 15 mins to find you and get you some air, and it would only take 1 person a few minutes to dig you out sufficently to breath.
If you had to choose between heading out with people who could do double burials in less than 5 minutes or people who took more than 15 which would you choose?
I know which group I would choose.
For the sake of a few hours of work learing how to use your equipment, you could be capable of saving your companions lives. I dont think there is any argument for not practicing multiple burials, professional or not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar wrote: |
davidof wrote: |
... efficient shovelling techniques |
Any hints and tips on this? |
get a decent shovel for a start.... too many have a shovel that is too thin and can collpapse under a boot... I've seen a BCA do that...
I understand the weight issue, but the Ortovox Expert is 1100 and biffs snow.... Their Alu pro isn't bad either and a decent compromise, IMV.
Although it isn't the same...try path clearing with your shovel and see how good it is...and that is likely to be new soft snow. Some of the smaller lighter ones seem next to useless as far as I can see.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have a Tracker which is why I spend some time practicing multiple burials in the training parks. Although for the type of terrain I generally ski it is unlikely for more than one of us to get buried.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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JT wrote: |
rob@rar wrote: |
davidof wrote: |
... efficient shovelling techniques |
Any hints and tips on this? |
get a decent shovel for a start.... too many have a shovel that is too thin and can collpapse under a boot... I've seen a BCA do that...
I understand the weight issue, but the Ortovox Expert is 1100 and biffs snow.... Their Alu pro isn't bad either and a decent compromise, IMV.
Although it isn't the same...try path clearing with your shovel and see how good it is...and that is likely to be new soft snow. Some of the smaller lighter ones seem next to useless as far as I can see. |
I've got a BCA Tour shovel and I'm hoping it will be OK, but will change it if it's too lightweight. The only time I have used it is to dig my car out once and clear a path up my garage's access road. Not a great test, but it did that job OK (although I would have appreciated a longer handle as it was back-breaking work).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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