 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm giving up trying to combine the best of both worlds by training a dog to use a transceiver 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 3-02-09 21:40; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| richjp wrote: |
| ... but in real life how can you be sure of getting a dog to the accident in time? |
I'm sure there's a market for some new type of ABS backpack where an avy dog springs out rather than inflatable wings.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| richjp wrote: |
| ... but in real life how can you be sure of getting a dog to the accident in time? |
I'm sure there's a market for some new type of ABS backpack where an avy dog springs out rather than inflatable wings. |
By DG's standards that is a rather sensible suggestion.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Actually we are currently prototyping a new type of ABS where a sniffer cat springs out if you are caught in an avalanche. It is well known that cats have nine lives so have a great chance of surviving the slide.
the wearer has to keep a kipper fastened inside his jacket using a special avalanche proof harness. You can also trail a kipper behind you on a special cord designed for the purpose. The kipper is to motivate the cat to find the spot where you are buried. Unlike dogs giving them an old sock to sniff doesn't seem to work too well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, How long should the 'kipper kord' (patent pending) be?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, It does indeed just bring a smile to your face 
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That's a great photo 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, Fabulous 
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| davidof, How long should the 'kipper kord' (patent pending) be? |
We are going to call it the "kipper tie".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, does your cat go out skiing with you often? I am amazed that, cats being cats, that it doesn't mind being in there! It looks quite happy though. Amazing! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Isn't it a bit mean? Cutting off a cats head and nailing it to your shovel handle?
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| davidof, does your cat go out skiing with you often? I am amazed that, cats being cats, that it doesn't mind being in there! It looks quite happy though. Amazing! |
Ok he's not my cat. He was lost at 2000 meters on the summit of the Grand Som a few weeks ago so a passing ski tourer put him in his rucksack to take him back to his owners in St Pierre de Chartreuse 1200 meters below (he had a collar). Poor moggy had an extreme descent down through gnarly 50 degree couloirs so that is maybe why he is not looking happy. No-one knows what he was doing up on the top of the mountain, apparently he rarely moves further than the sunny window ledge outside his house.
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You know it makes sense.
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B'stard had taken a heli-drop. No bloody thought for his grand-kittens.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, 
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Poster: A snowHead
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laundryman, I salute you
davidof, great picture and a great story.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| Funny how the cat decided to fetch himself up the mountain in the first place if he doesn't normally move from his sunny ledge! |
I heard he'd been Cat skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just stumbled upon this http://carca.ca/about/
(apologies if it's been posted on here before and is well known - did a search to check, which explains the thread resurrection).
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| We feel that with proper training, cats can be just as effective – and in some cases, more effective – than dogs, and certainly more effective than traditional probe line techniques. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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miranda,
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| ... after months of frustration, ridicule and many hundreds of small lacerations, all but Steve have given up |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Whatever next? A vole on a stick?
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miranda, love it!
Apparently their "documentary" did very well at the US mountain film festivals. Too well in fact, their office is struggling to keep up with demand:
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| Please note that we are a small organization staffed primarily by cats. While cats have proven very adept at avalanche rescue duties, they have struggled with office work. We have been overwhelmed with the number of people interested in showing their support by purchasing a DVD or T shirt and have been working our cats as hard as possible considering the incredible number of naps that they have negotiated into their contract. As such, please allow 2-4 weeks for your order to arrive while we work to catch up. This will be reduced as our feline staff becomes more efficient or our human staff learns to work at night when they are most active. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yeah Eeyore, but the dew claw is perfectly adapted for flicking rubber bands around the office...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| miranda wrote: |
Just stumbled upon this http://carca.ca/about/
(apologies if it's been posted on here before and is well known - did a search to check, which explains the thread resurrection).
| Quote: |
| We feel that with proper training, cats can be just as effective – and in some cases, more effective – than dogs, and certainly more effective than traditional probe line techniques. |
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Is it because they have smaller paws than dogs do before starting the search?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
I did hear from someone that no guide had ever been dug out of an avalanche by his clients (presumably not actually true?).. |
That sounds very unlikely. In the avalanche I was in, though all of us were in it to varying extents, the only person who had to be dug out (by his clients) was the guide. However he was only partly buried so perhaps this doesn't count.
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You know it makes sense.
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An avalanche dog is probably the most reliable method of recovering a body not a live person unless it is already right there when the avy happens. Best method is still your skiing partners.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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According to a book I have, "Free Skiing, how to adapt to the mountain" by Jimmy Oden, a study made by Dominique Stumteret, TRACE 02 Chamonix, showed that 3 persons looking for a victim completely buried under 1 metre of snow took an average of 26 mins using transceivers and shovels. That figure drops to 15 minutes when they used probes as well. At 26 mins, the chance of survival is about 40% while at 15 mins it's around 90%. So doubling the survival chance by using the probe. Yet when I did my EMS off-piste assessment as part of the BASI Level 4, the 2 other candidates in my group that passed did not use probes at all. They were slightly quicker at digging out the buried bags from a depth of about 5cm, but the trainer was certainly happier with my more methodical approach where I left a ski pole as a marked where I came off my search grid (so I could potentially continue looking for further victims), and taking the extra little time to get the probe out. I think that many people under-value the importance of the probe.
When I teach inexperienced clients off-piste I at least give them a 5-10 min basic run through of how the transceiver works, take my airbag so that there would be less chance of me being buried if everyone caught so that I could be a potential rescuer, and only go on 'safe' terrain where I'd be happy to go solo as I don't view clients as adding anything to my safety.
Oh, and that article is rubbish!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| simon_bates wrote: |
| According to a book I have, "Free Skiing, how to adapt to the mountain" by Jimmy Oden, a study made by Dominique Stumteret, |
are you sure that is not Dominique Stumpert?
| simon_bates wrote: |
while at 15 mins it's around 90%. So doubling the survival chance by using the probe. Yet when I did my EMS off-piste assessment as part of the BASI Level 4, the 2 other candidates in my group that passed did not use probes at all. They were slightly quicker at digging out the buried bags from a depth of about 5cm, |
5cm? or 50cm? I wouldn't call searching and digging out bags from 5cm any kind of assessment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| simon_bates wrote: |
| According to a book I have, "Free Skiing, how to adapt to the mountain" by Jimmy Oden, a study made by Dominique Stumteret, |
are you sure that is not Dominique Stumpert?
| simon_bates wrote: |
while at 15 mins it's around 90%. So doubling the survival chance by using the probe. Yet when I did my EMS off-piste assessment as part of the BASI Level 4, the 2 other candidates in my group that passed did not use probes at all. They were slightly quicker at digging out the buried bags from a depth of about 5cm, |
5cm? or 50cm? I wouldn't call searching and digging out bags from 5cm any kind of assessment. |
I was meaning that the tops of the bags were about 5cm deep, but it was probably a little more like 10-15cm...deep enough that standing on the bag wouldn't alert you to it, but shallow enough that the first use of the shovel would reveal it. So in that case, a probe will slow you down, but I still used the probe out of principle, because I would always use it unless I can see part of the victim. One of the good things about that day was that the wind was quickly blowing snow in to remove any hint of where there might have been any digging activity to bury them. As an assessment it does achieve something as people do fail, but training for deeper burials is far more prudent. But then I'm continually developing my knowledge and experience beyond the BASI Level 4 EMS course.
The book says "Stumtert". I'll presume it's a typo (to which I added my own!); if you think you know a Stumpert then it's probably that person.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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> if you think you know a Stumpert then it's probably that person.
I do he's married to a friend of mine and he is the guy you are thinking of.
You are absolutely right with your technique, good you stuck to your guns, methodical is the way to go.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
VolklAttivaS5, I've had a similar thing with a very experienced guide. I was totally ignorant of beacons at the time.
I suspect his argument would be that it's not possible to teach a group how to use avalanche transceivers effectively in less than about 4 hours...and most clients probably wouldn't want to 'waste' that time unless they'd specifically requested it. I also imagine that given such a group, the guide would probably be sticking to 'safe' terrain (yes, I know...no such thing) and would first and foremost be keen on avoiding getting avalanched in the first place (and would be particularly avoiding *himself* getting buried) 
I did hear from someone that no guide had ever been dug out of an avalanche by his clients (presumably not actually true?)...supposedly this was because in the cases where the guide got caught it was such a bad avalanche that it either killed them outright or buried them deep enough for no hope of return. Of course it could equally be that guides are willing to take out 'punters' without teaching them how to use beacons... |
I was d4 into my first week off-piste before I finally sussed out how transceiver works. With esf. Never asked if I knew how to use it, let alone show me. It only took 30 seconds for one of the others in my group to tell me to turn it immediately to recherche if someone else got buried.
I got freaked out on a subsequent tour when guide kept checking that we had our transceivers switched on (as if I would be turning it off!)
Also, no-one else had shovels or probes. Noone asked if we were carrying mobile phones or gave out emergency numbers.
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Isn't the test standard supposed to be a 1m burial? Certainly is on the IML exam.
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