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Is Driving downhill in snow easier than uphill if not using chains

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Don't bother engaging with an ALLCAPS.
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 monster77
monster77
Guest
SCOUSE wrote:

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU DISCONNECT OR "SWITCH OFF THE ABS" IT IS STILL AN OFFENCE IRRESPECTIVE OF BRAKING DISTANCES OR WHAT AUDI SAY ABOUT IT. IF FITTED IT "MUST" BE IN WORKING ORDER. IF YOU WANT I CAN SEND YOU A COPY OF THE CATEGORISATION OF DEFECTS RELATING TO BRAKING SYSTEMS!


Total tosh, If ABS is switchable there is nothing illegal about switching it off, It will only be off until the ignition is turned off. As soon as you restart the systm automatically reverts to ABS on.

If it was illegal then the switchable option would not be availabe. rolling eyes
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've been out all morning rescuing people stuck on snowy hills. Towed a 7.5 tonne truck up a hill, a Merc & a BMW. Managed it all without Traction Control or ABS too. Not bad for someone with no idea and no experience. rolling eyes Laughing
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Have to admit I did not find driving uphill all that easy this morning. It were more like slithering uphill...

My car has a 'winter' button which disables the ABS and ESP. I can't see how it would be an offence to use this button when it advises me to in the handbook in conditions of snow/ice...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
So the real danger is having a button on the dashboard and not knowing if pressing it might get prosecuted?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Hmm. I'd like to be able to disable my ABS sometimes, and I have noticed that in snowy conditions, especially on descents with chains on, I get worrying error messages about my ABS. But I don't think my car (the highly sporty and cool Fiat Multipla wink ) has a "disable ABS option.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w, ABS can get very confused by snowchains, especially ones with lots of electronics. Of course if you follow the manufacturers handbook and turn the systems off when you fit snowchains, you'll go to jail and not collect £200.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Spyderman, Laughing Maybe I should have a better look at my handbook! But I don't think my chains have lots of electronics. wink
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Spyderman wrote:
SCOUSE, You can stop shouting now. I've said nothing about disconnecting the ABS system, I agree if it's fitted it must be in working order. I stated that switching it off in deep snow and gravel reduces stopping distances. If Headlights are fitted they must work, but I can still switch them off. Switching something off doesn't make it defective, if it can be switched on again on demand. Of course it only applies to cars manufactured after 2002 anyway.

Quote:

"TRACTION CONTROL DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO INCREASE TRACTION"

Why have you quoted that? I never said anything like that Puzzled

Quote:
IF YOU ARE STUCK IT MAY HELP YOU GET MOVING AGAIN IF YOU TEMPORARILY TURN OFF THE TC.
How? I cannot think of one situation where turning off TC would help get you moving.

Quote:
BELIEVE ME I SHOULD KNOW.....IT IS MY JOB TO KNOW

Your job sounds to me like an MOT Tester. Knowing how the mechanical system should work in relation to the law, does not mean you know how to use it.

Quote:
YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO IDEA OR LIMITED EXPERIENCE RATHER THAN TRYING TO DEFEND YOUR COMMENTS BY CUTTING AND PASTING FROM VARIOUS SITES AND SLAGGING PEOPLE OFF!

I have plenty of experience, both driving on snow and off-road and build on that experience on a sometimes daily basis. What experience do you draw from?
I posted here to help people and have contradicted what you've said for the very same reason.


wink OK rant over....Just to close with a couple of points.

Monster77 / Spyder......Could you please tell me a modern car that you have a "switch" to turn off the ABS? (not TC, SRS ect:- they do not turn off the ABS). Please respond with actual fact that ABS is completely turned off please.

The only way to disable the ABS is to disconnect it/pulling a fuse ect.)

PS For the record I have already agreed that in certain snow conditions having no ABS "could" reduce stopping distance (not any other conditions such as wet roads/ice ect).

Queen Bodecia.....I am guessing you may have a Volvo?.....Winter mode changes the characteristics of the vehicle such as starting off in a higher gear in automatics and reducing power ect....It does not switch ABS off. Also can save on fuel economy!!!

In relation to temporarily turning of traction control:- If you're completely stuck you sometimes need to generate a little wheelspin to help get you unstuck, rather than having all of the "nannies" kick in and kill your wheelspin before you even have a chance to move. Believe me it might just get you moving again.

Another situation when you may want to turn off the traction control would be on a race track....This however is not recommended for mere mortals like me...It would be for experienced circuit track drivers....ie "THE STIG" rolling eyes

Experience for Spydermans request: Advanced driver qualified, over 24 years driving experience on/off road in full range of conditions (yes I am getting towards the old fart stage wink )competed in numerous off road competitions (BAMA rally ect) - Admittedly did not win any (or come close) Embarassed , And yes I do own a 4x4 as well.... Confused

PS Spyder i'm not quite an MOT tester.....I actually test and assess the MOT testers amongst other things....Such as examining vehicles after serious and fatal accidents to see if there are any defects that may have contributed to the incident....Such as discconnecting ABS Embarassed Also fully time served automotive engineer with HNC in motor vehicle technology amongst others.

As I stated I am only trying to help people and keep them on the right side of the law.......It is not a case of who is wrong or right....If I am wrong about the above I will hold my hands up......Safe driving all
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pam w, You know what they say, "if all else fails, read the instructions" Laughing
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Spyderman, you mean I can't just ask some random Snowheads??
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SCOUSE, Apologies, but I have never known Snowheads letting facts ruin a good thread Toofy Grin
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've got a Merc and try to avoid driving it in adverse conditions (scares the beejeebies out of me!) but on the occasions where it has been stuck on snow turning off the TC has definitely helped, rather than the car controlling the wheel speed I have been able to control it myself and it sometimes works. I say sometimes because it gets stuck on 1cm of snow on a flat surface! Best thing I did was leave it in my garage and buy a Peugeot 205 with snow tyres (which I crashed after hitting a large patch of black ice Crying or Very sad ).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks for starting this thread, It has reminded me that I must get my handbook out IFIRC it tells me to switch off quite a few of the buttons when I put snow chains on, need to check which one's have to go off and I think some have to be turned on...............

Intrigued about the comment regarding automatics, driving my wifes 6 gear automatic X trail on a snow covered road I took it out of drive and put it into 2, it made me feel I had more control. On the whole I think I prefer a manual box, but my car has a 7 speed auto box or a 7 speed manual flappy paddle change, which I have driven up to our apparment in the Alps on snow/ice covered roads and parked up behind a locals Land Rover never felt the need to take it out of drive. Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:


Monster77 / Spyder......Could you please tell me a modern car that you have a "switch" to turn off the ABS? (not TC, SRS ect:- they do not turn off the ABS). Please respond with actual fact that ABS is completely turned off please.

The only way to disable the ABS is to disconnect it/pulling a fuse ect.)



It's not the only way to disable ABS. For off road use of course.

This is for Mercedes:
To switch off the ESP, ABS and BAS systems.

1: Turn key to first position (first click - SRS light lights up)
2: Make sure multi-funtion display is on trip meter mode (displays total and trip miles/km's)
3: Press reset switch (left side on odo meter) three times
4: A beep sound will be heard and battery voltage is displayed
5: Use Up and Down arrows to see different info, including software and hardware versions, oil level (in litres - only if you turn key to second position) and an option to switch off ESP,ABS and BAS systems
6: If you switched off ESP system in menu and start the car, you will get ESP, BAS and ABS systems not available errors.

Most BMW:
Press and hold DSC button for 3 seconds to disable ABS.

Due to 2002 legislation in UK a dash switch cannot be fitted, but AUDI used to fit the switch to their Quattro models before this date, because of the safety benefits of switching off ABS when driving in soft snow and gravel. The Government now think that drivers are not capable of make a decision on road conditions. I think the switch is still fitted to some USA vehicles, Lincoln Navigator I think, plus some other heaps of junk.

You asked for a modern vehicle where ABS can be legally disabled. You'll find that most 4x4s with a Diff Lock fitted, as soon as the Diff Lock is engaged, the ABS is disabled.

Rather than turning Traction Control off when a wheel is spinning, it is better to accelerate gently, to allow the system to work correctly and divert power to the wheel with more traction. Obviously depends on the sophistication of the TC system.
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 monster77
monster77
Guest
SCOUSE wrote:


Monster77 / Spyder......Could you please tell me a modern car that you have a "switch" to turn off the ABS? (not TC, SRS ect:- they do not turn off the ABS). Please respond with actual fact that ABS is completely turned off please.



Not 4 wheels but 2, The BMW GS range of motorcycle has switchable ABS rolling eyes
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
My little Citroen has a button on the dash to disable the ESP. I believe is a rather unsophisticated form of traction control that really does not work in adverse conditions. Disabling the ABS is a little less straightforward as it involves inserting the key into the side panel switch and going through a series of functions, the same as I would for disabling the front airbags. Again the ABS on my car may be somewhat unsophisticated as it does not work in snow, it just releases the brakes, and it recommends in the handbook to disable both the ESP and ABS and to use chains and/or winter tyres in snowy conditions...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
This is for Mercedes:
To switch off the ESP, ABS and BAS systems.

1: Turn key to first position (first click - SRS light lights up)
2: Make sure multi-funtion display is on trip meter mode (displays total and trip miles/km's)
3: Press reset switch (left side on odo meter) three times
4: A beep sound will be heard and battery voltage is displayed
5: Use Up and Down arrows to see different info, including software and hardware versions, oil level (in litres - only if you turn key to second position) and an option to switch off ESP,ABS and BAS systems
6: If you switched off ESP system in menu and start the car, you will get ESP, BAS and ABS systems not available errors.


Magic, thanks Spyderman. If only I'd known this before last weekend I wouldn't have driven back from Heathrow last night in driving snow Shocked sliding sideways down uncleared Cotswold hills Mad and not being able to turn the engine off and on again to clear the ESP fault because the battery was flat. Evil or Very Mad
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So, let’s complicate the question. On a steep icy descent, in a rear wheel drive pickup truck, should chains be on front? Or rear? if your only concern is the downhill and then chains no longer needed?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Pgafooser, welcome to Snowheads
But a 10 year bump?
I wonder what you were doing at 2am . . . Puzzled
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You'll need to Register first of course.
I would say back wheels, worse thing is when the back tries to overtake the front, and if you need to use the side to stop you will need the grip from the chains to reverse out. The over riding thing is speed control, slow speed means lower momentum it is easier to control direction and stop
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Www. Rtfm . Com
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Spam aside, nostalgic thread with so much robust contribution from Spyderman. Sad
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
pam w wrote:
Spam aside, nostalgic thread with so much robust contribution from Spyderman. Sad


Indeed Sad
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Thanks. On icy mornings, I’ll be chaining up the rear tires and disabling abs to inch down our one mile long, 1000 ft vertical access road.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
OP: Certainly worth trying to determine what the traction settings for snow are when you pick up the hire car. Which of course, may be a challenge if the Owner's Manual isn't in English. Much better for the passenger to be at least trying to translate (try the free Google Translate app in video mode) en route as opposed to when you hit the snow.

For a recent BMW model, this will be to press the car-with-wiggly-lines button for 3 seconds or so 'till TRACTION appears on the display. When you hit tarmac, press again 'till the TRACTION disappears. If you turn the engine off it resets everything back to standard (tarmac) mode. Even in English, the BMW Owner's Manual is confusing and peppered with proprietary acronyms.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Spyderman wrote:
James the Last wrote:
SCOUSE wrote:
Just to add to Spyderman's good comments.....If you let some air out of the tyres this will also help with grip (dont forger to reinflate when at lower level!!!!).:


NO! Common misconception. You deflate your tyres to cope with soft snow for the following reasons. A typical slippery road is not generally that sort of a place. Chains are not particularly useful in soft snow. Deflating tyres is a completely different scenario.

http://www.4x4abc.com/jeep101/soft-sand-deflate.html




You post is very confusing to me. You state 'you deflate your tyres to cope with soft snow for the following reasons' and then don't give any reasons Puzzled

You air down tyres to increase the tyres surface area, very useful in conditions where there is no hard surface to be found under the tyres such as Sand, deep Mud and deep Snow. This help keep the vehicle on top of the surface rather than digging into it.
On a typical mountain road keep them inflated in order to cut through the snow to find the Tarmac below, as well as applying more pressure on the chains.
Chains can be very useful for traction in soft snow, as long as it isn't bottomless. Really good in Mud too.


I'm ok with bumping these evergreen threads. THere's good information and it's a perennial question.

^^Yeah, this is why snow tires have traditionally been chunky treaded, taller and thinner. You want to cut through the snow to harder surfaces. whereas in sand you want to float. Many decades ago I had a set of 80-series Hakkapellittas for my Saab 99 that rendered it unstoppable in as much snow as I could find. Even up to 2 feet! they just kept the car churning along.

regarding the OP: going downhill in icy/snowy conditions scares the crap out of me, and I've even taken some rally driving courses so I know a bit about car control. Once the COM of your car is skewed, you're basically out of control. As I get older the more I'd rather spend 200 euros for a hotel room and miss a day skiing than put my family in danger.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Jonpim wrote:
Pgafooser, welcome to Snowheads
But a 10 year bump?
I wonder what you were doing at 2am . . . Puzzled

Obviously a sleepless night worrying about driving in snow! Toofy Grin
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
Spam aside, nostalgic thread with so much robust contribution from Spyderman. Sad


Agreed. I've just read it all and found it both entertaining and informative Toofy Grin

abc wrote:
Jonpim wrote:
Pgafooser, welcome to Snowheads
But a 10 year bump?
I wonder what you were doing at 2am . . . Puzzled

Obviously a sleepless night worrying about driving in snow! Toofy Grin


A few hours behind GMT, I would guess from the spelling of "tires" - maybe one of your compatriots, @abc?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Red Leon wrote:
pam w wrote:
Spam aside, nostalgic thread with so much robust contribution from Spyderman. Sad


Agreed. I've just read it all and found it both entertaining and informative Toofy Grin

abc wrote:
Jonpim wrote:
Pgafooser, welcome to Snowheads
But a 10 year bump?
I wonder what you were doing at 2am . . . Puzzled

Obviously a sleepless night worrying about driving in snow! Toofy Grin


A few hours behind GMT, I would guess from the spelling of "tires" - maybe one of your compatriots, @abc?

"Location" is Paris. Unless it's Paris, Texas!

Good guess though.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abc wrote:
Red Leon wrote:
pam w wrote:
Spam aside, nostalgic thread with so much robust contribution from Spyderman. Sad


Agreed. I've just read it all and found it both entertaining and informative Toofy Grin

abc wrote:
Jonpim wrote:
Pgafooser, welcome to Snowheads
But a 10 year bump?
I wonder what you were doing at 2am . . . Puzzled

Obviously a sleepless night worrying about driving in snow! Toofy Grin


A few hours behind GMT, I would guess from the spelling of "tires" - maybe one of your compatriots, @abc?

"Location" is Paris. Unless it's Paris, Texas!

Good guess though.


Close but no cigar Toofy Grin
@Pasigal is in Paris but @Pgafooser shows no location


As an aside, I used to enjoy contributions from saikee who commented on this thread and who, IIRC, used to regularly report back from resorts across Europe. Anyone know what happened to him - was it maybe another flounceo?
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