 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks for highlighting this davidof.
That person in les Deux Alpes is very lucky that the pisteur was so conscientious. I can never believe it when I see people head off-piste on their own.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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People wrongly feel safe close to pistes.
I already told once before about being on the Cugnai lift above Val d'Isere and our guide telling me about being on that lift once, seeing a big avalanche start just to the left of the lift top. There were people just off piste to the left and they stopped and pointed to it, not realising it could reach them. He shouted to them to get away. In a few seconds they could have been on piste again. Instead they just stood there and were swallowed and 3 died, just off the piste. The Piste had been carefully sited: the avalanche didn't come onto it. One of the group, a woman, was slightly further from the piste. She was found with her trousers down - she had been taking a pee.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[Deleted after reflection]
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 26-01-09 11:14; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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silly sunday in Les Arcs today, avvy risk of 4...lots of warning signs on the handwritten lift signs to stay on piste, pissing with rain on Friday arvo, even up quite high would have frozen overnight and then new snow on top - bonded layers, I think not even without digging a pit to check... and yet lots and lots of people going off-piste, often without a backpack and therefore one would assume shovel, probe and transceiver. Even saw a group of 6 go 'en masse' down a line close to a slide on probably the steepest bit of the mountain.
Whilst darwin principles are fine, i'd hate to be one of the pisteurs having to rescue any idiots in these conditions...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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More Darwinians here in Grand Massif............. from our Chalet WIndows we can see the L'Arbaron didn't see the avalanche yesterday but this afternoon there have been people skiing it........ in fact as I type there's a solo skier doing it now........ madness!!
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I don't like to rabbit on about the risks but at least three of the fatalities yesterday didn't have avalanche beacons. As some other snowheads have pointed out, pistes are closed for a reason. There is plenty of lower angled, lower risk between the pistes stuff you can have fun on but skiing off piste in poor weather near the end of the day is adding to your troubles if anything happens.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, You can see how unstable the snowpack is just from scraping it off your car in the morning.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| I think not even without digging a pit to check... |
If you need to dig a pit you should NOT be there.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stewart woodward, Sorry but I'm not so sure that that is a very helpful comment - if you are digging a pit in order to justify a decision to take a particular route in the face of lots of contrary other evidence I agree but without digging pits how do individuals learn?
I'd wager that people who take the time to dig pits make more "no go" decisions or take conservative routes compared to those who just go.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| She was found with her trousers down - she had been taking a pee. |
If that is the case, she did not lose her life doing what she probably most enjoyed. |
she might not have been peeing....
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In the morning the atmosphere was so frenetic here that Thierry from Ski Extreme didn't even go up after setting off. He said he wasn't going skiing with all those impatient, agressive people around.  Absolute mayhem.
stewart woodward, I was always under the impression that that was what you were supposed to do (digging a pit).
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You know it makes sense.
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A bit late, but FlyingStantoni, why did you think the dead guy was lucky? (See top of topic)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| fatbob wrote: |
stewart woodward, Sorry but I'm not so sure that that is a very helpful comment - if you are digging a pit in order to justify a decision to take a particular route in the face of lots of contrary other evidence I agree but without digging pits how do individuals learn?
I'd wager that people who take the time to dig pits make more "no go" decisions or take conservative routes compared to those who just go. |
OK, dig a pit to learn about snow crystals etc.
But i would still say if you need to dig a pit you should not be there. A pit will tell you what the snow pack is like where you are but 20 meters away it could be completley different.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Digging pits as part of the decision making process is best left to the pros. But as Stewart says, it is a great way to learn about the snow pack. But I think Bertie was only saying what he thought the pack was like, with the caveat that he hadn't dug a hole to check. At least that's how I read it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
| stewart woodward, I was always under the impression that that was what you were supposed to do (digging a pit). |
I would rather build up a 'picture' from other sources, such as http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Savoie-Avalanche-Bulletin.
The 'experts' i know say 'if you have to dig a pit you are unsure of the snow pack so you should not be there'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just a couple of links to some avalanche control photos.
http://www.southwesthelicopters.co.nz/avalanche_control.html
In the second photo you can see the 25Kg sack of Anfo explosive sitting on the floor of the helicopter beside the avalanche control technician's leg. The large size of the explosive charge is due to the depth of the snowpack.
http://www.ess.washington.edu/web/ess/surface/Glaciology/projects/snow/snow.html
Another page showing a bit more detail from the same area.
As for digging pits. If you are going to bother to dig them at all it is definitely a case of the more the better so as to build a better picture of the conditions. As Stewart said, one pit will tell what it is like where you are but may not be representative of the conditions where you are planning on going.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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So is off piste limted to expert locals who've tracked every storm through the season as a generalised forecast for a whole region isn't all you need to make a decision?
Maybe this is a cultural thing - most avy pros & pro patrollers in N America will encourage pit digging as good practice, though this doesn't mean as a means of reaching a go decision on days of 4 or 5.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On this topic.
Does anyone know, or have a link to, how avalanche canons work?
I understand the premise behind the explosives but i mean the remotely operated ones you see high on steep slopes in resorts. My mate tried to explain that it was something to do with sonic booms but i'm not sure if he even knew what he was talking about cos i certainly didn't.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PJSki, Thanks. The one on the front page of Pistehors was one of the ones i was reffering to (saulire, 3v) Good vids too.
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| P10DW wrote: |
| A bit late, but FlyingStantoni, why did you think the dead guy was lucky? (See top of topic) |
Err, good point. Didn't read the Piste Hors article properly and only read up to the bit where they'd been rescued. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| A pit will tell you what the snow pack is like where you are but 20 meters away it could be completley different. |
Exactly what we were taught, and was demonstrated to us, on our BASI Mountain Safety Module.
The guide had us dig pits at 50(ish)m intervals across and down a slope. Whilst the snow layers were broadly similar - as you'd expect - there were significant differences between the pits. My pit went down 2.5m to ground (a complete joy to dig and analyse, I tell you), whereas 50m across a slope the pit only went down 1m because there was a ruddy great big rock underneath. I didn't have any significant depth hoar in my pit - the other pit had a 10-15cm layer of depth hoar at the snow/rock boundary.
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Would rather be the guy digging a pit than the one without any idea pushing it. I only dig a couple a year but I'm skiing the same places daily I just want to check on conditions after we have some depth and through the seasons temp changes.
Now going to a new area I will not only dig pits on multiple exposures but also check the avy conditions for that area (yes sometimes it means staying home no pits no BC skiing) as any person pro or not who likes being there season after season.
Pros help make it safe but good decisions by informed individuals are right up there, life experience doesn't always require a certificate. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm sure I'm missing something, but weren't two of these deaths people walking well away from pistes on snowshoes? As such can it be described as between the pistes? I don't know the area, so apologies if it is - but the article (to me) implied it was well off in the back country, which to a novice like me is a whole different ball game. I don't by any means want to appear to be taking the situation lightly, but people in the back-country should(?) be aware of the risks they face and accept it as a possibility?
Unlike a piste skier like me who hopes the resort have done all they can to mitigate the risk - Yes I accept that avalanches can happen close to, occassionally on, the piste'd areas and anyone skiing off on to a closed run is a muppet
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| Digging pits as part of the decision making process is best left to the pros. But as Stewart says, it is a great way to learn about the snow pack. But I think Bertie was only saying what he thought the pack was like, with the caveat that he hadn't dug a hole to check. At least that's how I read it. |
That's exactly what I meant - if you'd been around for a few days, then it was pretty obvious that the snow conditions were iffy without digging. If you'd only turned up for a day trip then by paying attention to what the locals were saying / signed then it was pretty obvious the conditions were iffy. Closing the top lifts is a bit of a clue as was throwing charges out of a helicopter at 10am...
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Digging a pit can only alert you to a danger... i.e. no go! It can never be read as meaning that the slope is safe.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, any thoughts on likely avy conditions this weekend in the Northern French Alps?
(I've had a look at the forecast, no significant new snow but will a week with a bit of yo-yo-ing in the freezing level be enough to stabilise the snowpack?)
I'm thinking of heading down to Morzine but this will require some effort and planning - if I'm restricted to skiing pistes I may just decide to go closer, ie the Vosges.
Many thanks for any feedback (and I realise usual disclaimers apply).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ouch, a 12 year old got stuck in an avvy?!!!!!!
Luckily he got out!
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