 Poster: A snowHead
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Is there a pecking order in ski brand ownership desireability?
The question is self explanatory. I have stirred up a hornets nest in another thread by suggesting that I think there is.
The purists (or those that know this is a forum where we all meet up from time to time so they ought to be seen to be saying the 'right' thing) are, of course, holding with the notion that it is the ski 'performance' that counts.
However, we all use something to make a choice. Often it is cost, but assuming you could buy what you want something else helps you to make the decision.
There was a thread recently of some considerable length about ownership of Dare 2 Be jackets over higher end brands. In this many people pointed out good examples of excellent performance at the perceived lower end of things vs. the higher end manufacturers.
With the skis many manufacturers are capable of making a good ski so why do people choose one over the other if they are not worried about cost. Why do the manufacturers themselves bring out a new top coat or jacket design each year and charge a small fortune extra for it over last years top coat or design just so people can be seen to walk out on the slopes with 'this seasons' model even though it is in all other respects an identical ski or jacket? It must be because marketing research shows that people are conscious of being seen with the 'right' gear. I think this probably extends to the ski brands themselves too.
If you were to give two people the chance of owning an Icelantic or a Head ski if both had similar technical properties I bet most would take the Icelantics - I think there is a desirable exclusivity to ownership, just as much as there is to announce that you are off to ski at Klosters or St. Moritz.
The can of worms is now officially open - please discuss at your leisure. I don't really care if you don't agree with me - its not a make or break thing, but it should make for a lively exchange and I kind of hope it will stay light hearted.
P.S. Don't forget I was previously Mrs Orange Tresspass gear and hire ski skier 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I have stirred up a hornets nest |
I think "bit of a discussion" is closer to the mark.
| Megamum wrote: |
| The purists (or those that know this is a forum where we all meet up from time to time so they ought to be seen to be saying the 'right' thing) |
That seems a bit unnecessarily snide to me. I was just trying to have a bit of a discussion.
| Megamum wrote: |
| If you were to give two people the chance of owning an Icelantic or a Head ski if both had similar technical properties I bet most would take the Icelantics |
You think? One of them is regualrly skied by instructors, has a pretty good pedigree at the highest level of competition, and is part of a worldwide stable of sports goods. The other is a niche market manufacturer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, is your question, 'Are some people seduced by branding?' If so, the answer is, 'Yes, some people are (in all retailing, sports equipment or otherwise).' Job done? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Of course there is, like any other fashion.
but everyone has differing opinions based on exerienced impression, what they're favourite downhiller uses, what's most expensive, what the pisteurs are riding, or the snow-park-hoodies, what's new etc
and there are some free from fashion slavery, who rate product on function rather than what it says about them.
i think it's cooler to be the latter
and always impress that it's not what you ride, but how you ride them.
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Arno, 
Hurtle, no, that wasn't the question. The question is trying to find out if there is a widely agreed pecking order for ski brands. Undoubtedly some people (and I include myself) are seduced by branding, but different people will be seduced by different brands. If you asked 100 people to rank the following cars in terms of pecking order: Ford, Skoda, Ferrari, BMW, Jaguar I'd guess you would get a significant level of agreement. If you asked 100 skiers to place Vist, Rossignol, High Society, Volkl, Salomon, Elan into a pecking order I'm sure you would not get a significant level of agreement.
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Megamum, guess it depends if you buy into the whole brand name thing doesn't it? as hurtle said...... not what rob@rar said...
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 8-01-09 22:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Poor BMF_Skier was never going to get those skis sold with the take over of the thread that resulted from my well intentioned posting |
A bit of advice: never try to 'oversell' anything ski related on snowHeads. Even the newbies are remarkably well informed!
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rob@rar, we have no native mainstream ski manufacturers. Compare punters in France vs Austria. Far more Salomon, Rossignol, Dynastar in France. Far more Fischer, Head, Volkl in Austria. Saalbach last Feb I hardly saw another person skiing Salomons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In terms of Elans, I haven't tried any new ski's
but i think they have a way to go to get toward the top of the desired brand list in most of the market
On the Icelantics, they're probably another marmite analogy with their distinct artistry. But being different and unique, and a talking point, probably make them quite desirable. I didn't get on with most of them, had a dislike of the shaman, but found the pilgrim a very nice ski, and loved anna
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| rob@rar, we have no native mainstream ski manufacturers. Compare punters in France vs Austria. Far more Salomon, Rossignol, Dynastar in France. Far more Fischer, Head, Volkl in Austria. Saalbach last Feb I hardly saw another person skiing Salomons. |
That I think proves my point. The pecking order is not widely agreed, certainly not across national borders. If you take my list of cars above I think people in many different countries (especially across Europe) will reach similar conclusions about the pecking order.
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rob@rar,
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no, that wasn't the question.
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I think it was in essence and so, obviously, does scarr.
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different people will be seduced by different brands
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Of course, but brand seduction, fashion slavery, call it what you will, is what Megamum is actually getting at. Are you saying that there is no such fashion slavery when it comes to skis? (I have absolutely no idea, personally.)
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You know it makes sense.
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place Vist, Rossignol, High Society, Volkl, Salomon, Elan into a pecking order
I like that as a notion - gauntlet picked up - in terms of most desirable brand to least desirable brand to be seen to be placing in the stand at the restaurant at lunchtime my list would be
High Society
Vist
Elan
Rossignol
Volkl
Salomon
As I posted on the other thread I do not take ski mags so have based that on my own experience, marketing seen at ski shows and what I have read on Snowheads. The list about is based purely on my perception of brand desirability (which no doubt won't correlate to ski performance)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Fischer RX8 - top of the kudos pile 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle,
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brand seduction, fashion slavery, call it what you will, is what Megamum is actually getting at.
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Yes, exactly that - thank you for clarifying
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, blimey, I'm impressed. I've never heard of the first, and have only heard of Vist because you posted a picture of yourself with that name in large letters all down your legs. (I have heard of the other four.)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, there seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of your question. Care to clear that up?
I listed those ski brands because I own one or two pairs from each stable. I can see no pecking order in them whatsoever, either from a technical point of view, value for money, prestige in the lift queue, graphical design or any other factor. They are "just" skis. The models I own are designed for different types of skiing and that is the only differentiator that I can see.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, hey now, what are you dropping me into?
trying to find safety in numbers?
pick a fight with rob@rar and "tag" throw me into the ring, chicken!
Megamum was putting Elans at the top of the cool wall, which in some peoples opinions it would be
I, and if we had a Clarkson of the ski world, would probably have it in the seriously uncool side
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
Hurtle,
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brand seduction, fashion slavery, call it what you will, is what Megamum is actually getting at.
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Yes, exactly that - thank you for clarifying |
So you're asking if people are seduced by brand marketing? What has "pecking order" got to do with that? If you are saying that (some) people are seduced by certain brands I agree fully.
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I suspect that the top of the pile changes a lot and would come from a niche manufacturer (in other words, they can't sell many) but I'd definitely put Salomon & Rossi at the very bottom - The Ford & Vauxhall of the business. Repmobiles on snow. mostly "pop-outs" made in Tunisia or China. I've always thought that the best option is a completely blank top surface save for a tiny "test" somewhere visible.
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the thing is, almost every mainstream brand has what I would term "punter" skis. if i see you carrying them, i will assume, until i see otherwise, that you are a punter. if you then proceed to rip the mountain up on a pair of punter skis, i will be doubly impressed that you are able not only to rip, but also do it on a pair of floppy noodles aimed at low intermediates
if you have a top end freeride ski, i will assume you know what you are about. if you then flail your way down the mountain, I will think "all the gear and no idea"*
*this probably describes me 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I suspect that the good Lord will soon elevate Salomon up the order.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| but I'd definitely put Salomon & Rossi at the very bottom |
Their race department skis are pretty decent.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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scarr, sorry, didn't mean to drop you in anything. I would never pick a fight with rob@rar, perish the thought, but it's all academic now, 'cos Megamum has now confirmed that it is indeed brand seduction/fashion slavery that she was getting at.
And this
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The models I own are designed for different types of skiing and that is the only differentiator that I can see.
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seems to imply that cool or uncool doesn't seem to come into the equation at all where skis are concerned, at least for rob@rar. By the way, as is probably obvious, I haven't looked at the thread in which BMF Skier is trying to sell some skis. That seems to have been what sparked Megamum's question.
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rob@rar, maybe true for you and I but we're old gits and will ski a stock SL ski from 'unfashionable' brand like Dynamic over a floppy mid-fat park ski with phat gfx from Line or Armada. The new generation of manufacturers are bringing some of the anti-establishment 'cool' from snowboarding and I know a lot of my friends would choose a more new-generation manufacturer over the traditionals, which is pretty much what Megamum is saying.
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, you are forgetting that what's a desirable brand for a 40 year old sucks big stylee for a teenager - can't ignore the demographic aspect.
I like Stoeckli
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I suspect that the good Lord will soon elevate Salomon up the order. |
Now, why did that make me think of Latchigo?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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So you're asking if people are seduced by brand marketing? What has "pecking order" got to do with that? If you are saying that (some) people are seduced by certain brands I agree fully.
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What has 'pecking order got to do with it'? Everything!!
If people can be seduced by brand marketing then there must a perception of what is best, what isn't and what comes in the middle. At least I would have thought so
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Sideshow_Bob wrote: |
| rob@rar, maybe true for you and I but we're old gits and will ski a stock SL ski from 'unfashionable' brand like Dynamic over a floppy mid-fat park ski with phat gfx from Line or Armada. The new generation of manufacturers are bringing some of the anti-establishment 'cool' from snowboarding and I know a lot of my friends would choose a more new-generation manufacturer over the traditionals, which is pretty much what Megamum is saying. |
Yes I agree, but once again that proves that there is no agreed pecking order. Just different people preffering different brands. If Megamum genuinely has no interest in the notion of a pecking order perhaps you could amend the subject title, and I think there will be nothing but agreement in this thread 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
What has 'pecking order got to do with it'? Everything!!
If people can be seduced by brand marketing then there must a perception of what is best, what isn't and what comes in the middle. At least I would have thought so |
OK, I was right after all. My point is there is no agreed pecking order. It will vary significantly from person to person. Unlike cars, where this is most certainly a pecking order.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, well I liked it...and have skied the Lord and it looks cool and is a fabulous ride. A ski that could make the brand sexy again.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar,
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So you're asking if people are seduced by brand marketing? What has "pecking order" got to do with that?
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Everything! A company brands its products with the express aim of pushing it up the pecking order of desireable goods, above those of its rivals. Sorry, maybe this is getting into an argument just about semantics. Anyway, I think it's admirable that you apparently choose a ski for what you think it does, rather than for what it's called/looks like/ costs/is considered cool.
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I think pecking order within brands is another thing that a few people have touched on. Salomon have right at the bottom the absolute horse sh*t designed for the rental fleet right up to the Rocker which is pretty bad ass and if I saw someone skiing them I wouldn't think of them being on low end skis.
Same with Rossi as their race sticks are pretty competitive as far as things go, also the new S7 looks pretty sweet. As for Armada they do actually make some pretty good skis now..
Some brands don't come across like this and they are generally more specialised like DPS or Moment for example.
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Arno, I've given up trying to gauge skiers by their skis, so prefer checking out people's bindings instead. If someone has a pair of 916/920 or a P18 or touring bindings like a Duke/Baron I'll check which way they're heading when they duck the ropes rather than think about how much the helivac will cost them
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, maybe I'm not expressing myself well. Megamum asked if there was a pecking order. One pecking order that most people would recognise and agree with. Do you think there is such a thing, or will different people like different brands for different reasons (one of which might be that they have been seduced by the image, or whatever, of that brand).
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FAQ
. Perhaps I was putting myself into the situation - in the same place I would be very conscious of making sure I was putting forward the commonly understood viewpoint. I think it will be very interesting to see what others have to say don't you? It's all about perception - I wonder if there will be a split of opinion between the newbies like myself and people in the know like you?
