 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| Hurtle, FWIW I think the doctrine of no pressure, only edge is just semantics. |
If you want a skier who is relatively new to pure carved turns to modify their turn shape surely you would ask them to increase or decrease edge angle? |
Agree. However, when going from railing to carving I believe that discounting the concept of pressure on a platform could be unhelpful.
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| Managing ski pressure at the top of the turn (other than simply transferring weight from one set of edges to the other) is a high order skill if you are going to keep the skis carving. Not something that I could do with any level of success. |
Don't agree. I'd be pretty sure you're doing this already when you go for early extension and inclination, whether you think about it in those terms or not.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Don't agree. I'd be pretty sure you're doing this already when you go for early extension and inclination, whether you think about it in those terms or not. |
Maybe I am, just doesn't feel like that to me (but I accept I have a pretty poor feel and mental image for how I actually ski  ). Next time you're on a Snoworks course ask Phil or Emma about this. They have been trying to get me to change the turn shape by changing the edge angle for a few seasons, asking me not to do anything else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, haven't asked phil/emma about it before - would be interesting to - but have spoken to the likes of ross green/glen greener/mark dixon
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| slikedges wrote: |
| rob@rar, haven't asked phil/emma about it before - would be interesting to - but have spoken to the likes of ross green/glen greener/mark dixon |
Well they'd know, but I'm wondering if those conversations were more focused on higher end skiers rather than those first dabbling with arc-arc turns?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting thread ... which gives me a lot more to think about.
As a fairly inexperienced skier, the main problem area seems to be in the linking of carved turns. It's seems to be straight-forward enough to successfully complete little tiger's excersise (single 'railroad' turns, that leave you facing back up the slope). But personally, I find trying to link more than one or two turns almost impossible.
Maybe the ILE thread will help ... but I have a feeling that this is perhaps too advanced for some (i.e. me!)
Warren Smith's first dvd is good - but IIRC he doesn't go into much detail about the transition between each turn.
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abj, Yeah that is why Fastman has the carving in the Advanced Edging DVD... far easier to learn to carve when your balance is good and you have the refined steering skills to bleed speed/change direction as needed if anything happens... He REALLY wants folks to do the other 3 DVDs of exercises first for a reason(not to make more money strange as it seems) There is a whole DVD to come on transitions - they are very important... but you really need solid skills in other areas to work on the transitions... I'd expect probably over 1 hour - close to 1.5 hours again from what I have heard...
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| abj wrote: |
But personally, I find trying to link more than one or two turns almost impossible.
Maybe the ILE thread will help ... but I have a feeling that this is perhaps too advanced for some (i.e. me!)
Warren Smith's first dvd is good - but IIRC he doesn't go into much detail about the transition between each turn. |
I find that half the effort is in the timing of when to make the transition. Get the timing right and it all just happens so easily that the effort is negligible. One (almost) doesn't even need sharp ski edges.
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| Quote: |
I find that half the effort is in the timing of when to make the transition.
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So are there any particular cues to help get the timing right ... or does this come with experience?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abj wrote: |
| So are there any particular cues to help get the timing right ... or does this come with experience? |
It does come a bit with experience, but I think more people rush the transition than take too much time.
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| Quote: |
I think more people rush the transition than take too much time.
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Okay, (and now I'm probably sounding really thick) so does that mean that I need to feel/allow my skis run flat for longer between edge changes?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, yes, not on those just getting to know their edges, more on those who have some experience already but not necessarily higher end (depending on your definition  )
abj, not very helpful but I find the transition should be where in any given turn shape or type it feels my centre of mass wants to cross the line of my skis. Many will tell you that you should have a glide phase (so called phase 0) on completion of your turn before changing edges and this is valid for larger radius turns. The same exists in smaller radius turns but it has by necessity to be shorter. For most the transition is rushed so the skis end up being rotated/pivoted/turned rather than the edge change causing the ski to come round. Here's a drill for you: at transition try jumping from both uphill edges onto both downhill edges without rotating/pivoting/turning your skis and then letting the edges carry you round the turn. Choose a wide empty flattish slope and get a little speed up to do it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abj wrote: |
| Quote: |
I find that half the effort is in the timing of when to make the transition.
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So are there any particular cues to help get the timing right ... or does this come with experience? |
Point down the fall line with the outside arm. When your body wants to go in line with (feels heavy along the line of) your arm, that is the exact moment to use Outside Leg Release (OLR) transitions.
ILE transitions start a little before that.
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| abj wrote: |
| Okay, (and now I'm probably sounding really thick) so does that mean that I need to feel/allow my skis run flat for longer between edge changes? |
I don't think of it as a dead spot between turns, but when I start the transition to my new edges I don't rush the process as this is likely to lead to either some twisting/rotation of the skis or putting the skis on edge so quickly that they have trouble biting into the snow. The transition is a progressive movement, not an on/off switch.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks guys ... I'll have a think/play when I'm back on the snow next week.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was once shown how to carve on a fairly gentle slope in a private lesson by just moving the knees sideways but I haven't really practiced it since then because I realised there were other basics I needed to master first.
But I was just wondering if pole planting comes into carving or does that defeat the purpose?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jeraff, no, most good carvers still pole plant though it's usually a bit of a touch or flick. It occurs at the point of recentering and transition. Helps me to feel like I'm driving my centre of mass down the hill along the flow line. Sometimes it morphs into a movement slightly later in the turn that looks like they're deflecting an imaginary gate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jeraff, as slikedges says, with basic carving running the skis natural turn radius the pole plant can become a bit token but shouldn't be regarded as redundant. When you start to want to perform more dynamic short turns or higher speed large radius turns with more edge angle then the poles come back into play for timing and balance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sleipnir, nice move at the end carving on one inside ski then stepping new inside ski over old inside ski 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sleipnir, and there was me thinking you were a SKI GOD! 
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Sleipnir = NORSE GOD!!! slikedges, Norse God (well, horse of)
Found this other vid of World Cup skiers carving in slow mo http://uk.youtube.com/v/TTboYL8CjaU&feature=related
Really interesting how they have different techniques. Cuche on a couple of turns extends and unloads the skis so much that he hops from one turn to the another......
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Sleipnir, Nyberg's a big lump!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, I'd agree that many are taught carving too early. Lots of younger skiers who are very good on their edges aren't very good at pressure and rotation and it eventually holds their skiing back. Also people who haven't been skiing long and have latched onto carving as the be all and end all and who try to ski on their edges without first having solid fundamentals. I've met a couple of guys like that who ski at MK on top grade (off the shelf) slalom skis. They can carve after a fashion, leaving clean lines in shortish turns but requiring an almost wild commitment. Almost anything outside that performance envelope (bigger arcs, steered turns, skidded turns etc) looks anything from unpleasantly untidy to barely controlled. Wouldn't want to be downhill of them on a real hill. 
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Sleipnir, yep, I watch that one at least a couple of times a day (more on weekends) and again just before bedtime
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, never on a Sunday though
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I find the comments on the pole plants interesting. Its kind of funny, I'd feel lost without my poles to hold onto, but I'm not conscious of using them in any sort of regular pole plant yet whether carving or otherwise. If I try to plant them and ski round them (something that's been tried with me in lessons) my sking goes to pot more than usual. Should I worry about the fact that I am not yet pole planting? Should I try to or will it come naturally by itself in the future as the body feels that is necessary?
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, try.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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red 27, sundays is for other things...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, no in fact they are not needed at your stage of skiing... I spent a LOT of time at your stage either skiing without them or using the poles just to do drills with...
I'd even suggest you try that rather than try to pole plant... If you are using the ski to turn you you will not need a pole plant for the level of skiing you are at... and I can tell you that Fastman regularly just forgets to pole plant doing longer turns because he has skied without them for so long just carting race gear around...
Try leaving the poles and doing some of the exercises like "playing basketball" "aeroplanes" or perhaps just skiing with your hands on hips to stop yourself using upper body rotation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Little Tiger told me this thread was going on, so I had to take a break from editing and drop in, as it's the very thing I'm working on right now in my next DVD. Many good comments in here, you guys are really starting to "GET IT".
Yes, the transition is the crucial cog and most difficult thing about arc to arc turns. So hard to eliminate the pivot/steer/tail push. Why? A few reasons. First, just habit. Most skiers have not learned to shed the pivot when steering their turns. Fear of the falline early in their learning caused them to adopt a big rotary driven pivot to get out of the falline as quickly as possible, and the default transition is locked in to their skiing.
Second, that start of the turn inclination that happens in arc to arc carving, when you're on your downhill edges and your body is tipped down the hill, a position that at first experience feels like sure impending disaster. The pivot is a great way to avoid it.
Third, it's that feeling of acceleration in the top of an arc to arc turn. It's a new sensation that varies so from the pivoted steered turns they know. Arc to arc carving produces a roller coaster sensation,,, speeding up through the first half of the turn, and slowing though the second half. Once you get accustomed to it, it's a great source of fun. But at first it can be scary, and a pivot gets unconsciously thrown in as an instinctive survival tool.
So what to do? First, develop your basic balance and edging skills. This eliminates the pivot in a safer (read slower speeds) environment, and shows you how turn shape is a speed control tool that can replace the pivot. It makes you aware of the pivot in your skiing, and shows you that it's unneeded. Balance skills expand the comfort zone, so when the higher speeds that come with carving are not as intimidating. Next, follow Little Tiger's advice above. Begin on flat slopes, and start with a carved traverse to a stop. Steepen the traverse, go to falline carves to a stop, then full turns that build in degrees to the falline. Connect your first turns on very flat slopes, and at very small falline angles, and with a hesititation during the transition followed by a very slow roll from uphill to downhill edges. Build up the degree of turn and before you know it you're doing quality arc to arc turns and enjoying the roller coaster sensation, and the transitional inclinated float. It's those things that were in the beginning scary, that surprisingly as skills grow become the source of enjoyment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just wondering again....
You're at the top of a fairly steep and straight piste run. Which would be faster, carving as close to a straight line as you can or tucked down with skis flat going straight down.
I'm thinking that carving would have less ski contact with the snow so less friction but going straight down has no turns so a little less distance to cover.
Can you carve while tucked down?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Jeraff wrote: |
Just wondering again....
You're at the top of a fairly steep and straight piste run. Which would be faster, carving as close to a straight line as you can or tucked down with skis flat going straight down. |
Straight is always quicker than turning. GS Racers try to get a flat ski between gates to go faster.
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| Can you carve while tucked down? |
Yes
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been told that carving while tucked is a good exercise as the body position is fixed in a tuck so it enforces you to achieve lower and upper body separation.
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FAQ
. I've taken your points/views in mind and I'll try them out in a day or two, thanks 
