 Poster: A snowHead
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| Karl Moto wrote: |
| I read on here last year about a Speed Camera on the slopes.. i think it was in switzerland, can you imagine how s**t that would be? |
thats where I live and if you think anything comes from tearing past the camera to see how fast you can hit it then you are sadly mistaken. Novelty camera for a novelty piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Karl Moto, not true from what I have seen over there. Most chairs do have safety bars, some without footrests though. There is the odd chair without a safety bar but these tend to be old ones with a centre pole, which I believe are getting replaced.
The most ridiculous thing is most Americans dont bother lowering the bar and if they do want it raised about three pylons before the top station.From a country trying to excel in health 'n' safety 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
From a country trying to excel in health 'n' safety
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Since when?
I do think pam's idea has some merit. It's bit more complicated for my personal taste. I'd suggest to say, first time, a warning and scan the pass to "register" that warning in the system. Second offense, pass invalidated!
It obviously has no effect on day pass users. But for someone in the resort for a week, it would have a deterrant effect if they got "scanned" on the first or second day. I believe it will have to effect to slow them down because they would worry about lossing their pass for the rest of their stay.
Much more importantly, it will have the effect of telling the offender DIRECTLY: "you're skiing WRONG!". After all, it's not so much the speed, but speed NOT under good control, that we're concerned about.
Yes, it would require more piste patroll. There's no other ways around THAT.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I must admit I'm shocked since joining this site and having access to resort news stories that there seem to be so many collisions. I'm certainly not a newbie at skiing and apart from a minor incident of my own, I haven't really seen any examples of this. ... |
I have seen a child knocked off its feet infront of its mother - and the skier at blame ski away quickly. This was comiong off the bottom of a nusery slope at LDA.
I have also been taken out myself by a skier falling onto me on the Super Diable slope - again at LDA.
I have felt at peril because of heavy traffic and reckless skiing at Verbier, and (one more) at LDA - on of all things a green slope (Demoiselles) on the home run, and also on the black Valentin - in that case from the risk of falling skiers attempting a slope beyond their abilities - again on the home run.
LDA features a lot above. To get things into perspective, I go there quite a lot.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If the mountain allows it, choose a whole area of Internediate/Advanced terrain, restrict it people who sign a disclaimer, and have no-rules at all, and definately no helmets....................
Would attract all the "enthusiastic" skiers/boarders for miles around, away from the other slopes, thus making it far safer for the majority.
You could even have a bar at the high point of the area, and possibly the bottom as well, with a non-stop happy hour........
John.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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BCjohnny, Mini-bars on the lifts 
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In Soldeu (Andorra), a couple of years ago, there were piste people on the busy runs, blowing whistles and pulling skiers (who they deemed to be out of control/too fast/whatever) up at the bottom. They then gave them a lecture on piste safety. I remember it was some sort of temporary campaign though, not a permanent thing. Maybe it could be made a regular occurrence in resorts on busy weeks?
Another safety measure is the "slalom" netting where pistes meet/lift queues occur or other areas where collisions are likely due to speed. Very cheap to put 2 overlapping nets across the piste so skiers have to do a very sharp S turn to get past. Those who can't make it just get tangled in the nets rather than in other people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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moffatross, A line of moguls 5 bumps deep every 300m
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Holiday in a quiet resort outside of school holidays..
Unless you are a decent skier then going to the famous, busy resorts is a needless risk and expense.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I like the idea of designating certain pistes as "quiet" zones where people like novices and families can choose to go to relax and ski gently & where speed merchants are told to keep out. I think there is a problem with lack of any piste patrol - the mostly fenced off novice area at the top of the Plan Peisey lift appears to have a short cut across the middle of it - when I was there I saw logs of people ski fast straight across with scant regard for the teetering novices in their wake. The practice just seemed to be accepted - why didn't they stick a barrier across to prevent this and make folks ski round the area?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| achilles wrote: |
| The OP offered the idea of making helmets mandatory as a means of cutting the number of skiing deaths - my post was in response to that. |
You're right - sorry, I hadn't read the thread title carefully enough; my post was related to the sense of wearing helmets in general.
Neither I nor anyone I know of would claim that wearing helmets would stop all skiing deaths. However, I personally believe that wearing helmets would reduce the number of skiing deaths due to head injury (and thus, if wearing them were mandatory, the number of these deaths would be reduced). That opinion is based on the logic that helmets do provide some protection, which might well help in borderline cases. In 2 of the 3 fatal accidents recently, discussed in another thread, the skier wearing a helmet survived while the other died. That is worth thinking about. Now, it is clear, that it does not prove that the other skier would have survived if she/he had been wearing a helmet or whether the helmet was a major factor in limiting injury for the surviving skier. There is also the worrying possibility that one skier wearing a helmet might make it worse for the other party (though I am not aware of any evidence that this is so). However, I believe that the chances of survival for the skier killed would have been higher (and I can't see that wearing a helmet would have been a disadvantage under such circumstances).
| espri wrote: |
| My understanding is that current evidence confirms that helmets do reduce the effects of head injuries. |
This statement stands as it is written. Indeed, the statement corresponds exactly to the summary in the helmet section of Dr. Langram's excellent site http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet. Of course, it says nothing about cutting the number of skiing deaths.
Despite all the positive evidence of the benefits that come from wearing a helmet, I do not believe that making them compulsory is necessary. Some things should be left to each person's own common sense. And, as it happens, the evidence is that more and more skiers are wearing helmets.
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espri, if you really feel a burning urge to, you might wish to discuss helmets in one of the many helmet-related threads. This tread is very specifically about cutting down deaths (in skiing-related accidents).
| Quote: |
| In 2 of the 3 fatal accidents recently, discussed in another thread, the skier wearing a helmet survived while the other died. That is worth thinking about. |
But not a lot
The good doctor notes that despite the increasing helmet use, the incidence of intermediate skiers having traumatic fatal accidents* through hitting stationary objects remains static. So helmets do not appear to reduce the incidence of fatalities - so although they have some merit in saving minor injuries, they are not relevant to the discussion in this thread.
* I must admit I am bemused by the term 'traumatic deaths' - would any sH medic care to give a definition of that?
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, 'trauma' usually indicates injury caused by an external force i.e. A blow, fall, collision etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"Quiet zones" only work if enforced. Near the top of Verte in Val d'Isere they sometime have big banners saying "slow" and "beginners only" a friend was in ski school and doing a traverse exercise slowly across that slope. Three muppets decided to race down that slope but being out of control muppets one of them crashed into my friend. Both went down. Luckily my friend only got a bruised leg. However the girl lost two or three teeth and left a bloody patch on the piste. The muppets had to have seen the sign and they ignored it.
Quiet areas are, IMHO, a great idea but only if supported with some sort of policing.
There are lots of other interesting ideas in this thread but I fear that the only one that would work is better education of skiers and I have no idea how that can be achieved.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Frosty the Snowman, thanks. So Doctor Langram is saying that the increased used of helmets has not decreased the incidence of death from impact. So it would seem that discussion on helmets is indeed not relevant to the thread topic.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Adrian wrote: |
Quiet areas are, IMHO, a great idea but only if supported with some sort of policing.
// ..........
...........//
There are lots of other interesting ideas in this thread but I fear that the only one that would work is better education of skiers and I have no idea how that can be achieved. |
Indeed. Perhaps what piste patrol there are could have the power to deactivate lift passes that are only reactivated when the skier/boarder goes to a nominated place where they receive a safety lecture (and which robs them of a bit of their time). Given that most are on electronic systems it would not be hard to come up with some way of effecting the deactivation on the spot. On a 2nd offence perhaps the pass could be deactivated for 24hrs. Sure they could just go buy a new one, but surely it'd be a deterrant for most?
Alongside this there needs to be some way of shifting the culture towards one that has more consideration for other people, but that is a biggie in life in general, not just on the ski slopes. Whilst many of todays young adults have grown up allowed to do exactly what they want, when they want and how they want, it is hardly surprising that they have the belief that anyone telling them they cannot do something is "out of order". If this doesn't change we are going to continue to have a problem. IMHO society in general needs to regain a sense of respect for authority rather than derision. The media encourages a total lack of respect for the first external authority kids meet - teachers. Why is it that any problems with behaviour or lack of work are always deemed the fault of "bad teachers" with kids/parents seemingly absolved from any responsibility? When I was teaching I had a bright but recalcitrant 15 yr old lad who refused to work, instead making a pain of himself and disrupting lessons for others. I tried to apply the stages of the school's discipline code until with much use of his favourite F word he refused to attend detentions meaning the next stage was for me to ring his home. I will never forget that phonecall in which his father gave me the biggest mouthful ever peppered with F's, C's and told me "If my f'ing boy says he don't do your f'ing detentions, he don't do f'ing detentions. Gerrit?"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Butterfly wrote: |
Indeed. Perhaps what piste patrol there are could have the power to deactivate lift passes that are only reactivated when the skier/boarder goes to a nominated place where they receive a safety lecture (and which robs them of a bit of their time). Given that most are on electronic systems it would not be hard to come up with some way of effecting the deactivation on the spot. On a 2nd offence perhaps the pass could be deactivated for 24hrs. Sure they could just go buy a new one, but surely it'd be a deterrant for most?
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doesnt work, my pass broke yesterday after the 1st lift, I stayed up the mountain the whole day without one ducking ropes and barriers. Not one person questioned me.
Also yesterday a guy skied past me with what must have been a baby under 1 years old in a back pack  is there no end to the stupidity of people? I'm a good boarder who rarely falls if I'm riding boring piste but there is no way I would back pack a baby up and go board. Crazy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stab wrote: |
| Also yesterday a guy skied past me with what must have been a baby under 1 years old in a back pack is there no end to the stupidity of people? I'm a good boarder who rarely falls if I'm riding boring piste but there is no way I would back pack a baby up and go board. Crazy. |
Board or ski?
Not that I would encourage it. But skiers fall on their side not on their back. So it's not quite as insane as boarding with a baby on the backpack.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Serre Che last season, saw an adult skier with a child on his shoulders!!! (with own skiis on) coming down busy piste..... assumed the child was tired or the father was nervous of less experienced/talented skiers/boarders. Give the father his dues, he was a good skier....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| Much more importantly, it will have the effect of telling the offender DIRECTLY: "you're skiing WRONG!". After all, it's not so much the speed, but speed NOT under good control, that we're concerned about. |
I think this the most important of points. Speed limits and laser or radar guns aren't what're needed and certainly aren't what're wanted. More barriers in slow/family skiing areas, bottlenecks, bottom of lifts etc, with more ski patrollers stopping and dressing down injudicious skiers are the way forward. Speed isn't the problem, inappropriate speed is, together with inconsiderate and irresponsible skiing.
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I'd be interested to see stats on where accidents actually occur and why, my guess is that there are black spots where accidents are pretty inevitably given human nature i.e funnelling lots of people through a narrow gap or into multiple lift base stations (I've just come back from Obergurgl, and I can identify two possible spots) which you might be able to design out. Thinking of the the accidents that have happened to people I know, most of them don't involve another person so addressing speeding skiers won't help with this ...
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Simple,
Ban Dutch, French and Italian children from skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Overcrowded ski slopes are the killer.
Double the price of a lift pass. Triple it during Christmas and half term weeks, Then the Lift Companies , can make more money to build lifts, to increase capacity.
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| Quote: |
skiers fall on their side not on their back.
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Come and watch me skiing and I'll prove that they can fall on their back 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Plain and simple people need to know what the rules of the slope are should be thought on day one
2 People need to know their limits and be responsible for it.
Helmets are a choice personally I wear one and Think everyone should but if they dont want to its their head nad their choice.
I think the number of accidents and the number of serious accidents are realitivley small in comparison to the number of people skiing but these things will happen
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Boris, Me too...
anyway babies make good airbags in the case of a major collision
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You know it makes sense.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In 2 of the 3 fatal accidents recently, discussed in another thread, the skier wearing a helmet survived while the other died. That is worth thinking about. |
But not a lot
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I have never claimed that a helmet would help in many cases. The general opinion, as reported by Dr. Langram, is that head injuries are infrequent in skiing and cases where a head injury is the sole cause of death occur even less often. So a helmet is not very likely, statistically, to save your life. However, if wearing a helmet occasionally saved one life, that would be one family tragedy less and surely worthwhile. And therefore I believe a plea for wearing helmets is more than valid in this thread about fatal accidents, quite distinct from their benefits in less serious accidents.
With regard to the two accidents mentioned, in both the surviving skier suffered a fractured skull. That was despite any protection offered by the helmet. It seems to me reasonable to imagine that, if the skiers had not been wearing helmets, the trauma might well have been even worse, possibly fatal. That is certainly surmise but does describe a situation where the helmet might be said to have helped avoid a death.
BTW, I do think it is rather futile to try to find measures to "cut down on death". You can't tell in advance whether an accident will be fatal or not. Like most others who have posted in this thread, I have thought of it more as being about measures to improve general piste safety, which should reduce the frequency and severity of accidents. As a byproduct one hopes that there will be fewer fatal accidents.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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espri, we clearly interpret Dr Langram's remarks differently, and will have to agree to carry on differing. Enjoy your skiing this season. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, you too  That is the main thing, and keeping folk as safe as possible.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stab wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
Indeed. Perhaps what piste patrol there are could have the power to deactivate lift passes that are only reactivated when the skier/boarder goes to a nominated place where they receive a safety lecture (and which robs them of a bit of their time). Given that most are on electronic systems it would not be hard to come up with some way of effecting the deactivation on the spot. On a 2nd offence perhaps the pass could be deactivated for 24hrs. Sure they could just go buy a new one, but surely it'd be a deterrant for most?
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doesnt work, my pass broke yesterday after the 1st lift, I stayed up the mountain the whole day without one ducking ropes and barriers. Not one person questioned me.
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Obviously you are skiing one of the areas that hasn't moved into the 21st century yet then 
One important part of his post was "Given that most are on electronic systems", and yours can't be if you could do that. (unless you were skinning up of course).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| ... laws need to be introduced to give piste patrollers powers of arrest, and the power to confiscate passes, for reckless skiing. |
Absolutely! My wife got wiped out by some lunatic when we were skiing in the states a couple of years ago. A ski patrol guy who witnessed the whole thing (and just happened to be a family friend) took the idiot aside and dispensed some summary justice before revoking his life pass.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Policing of ski areas? hard to do, the same as MRT trying to police mountains, its a non starter.
Installing bottlenecks with sign warnings at slow speed areas or to slow skier speeds down - could possibly work, but you would still get ' the fast lane coned off' type speed skier who will go flat out and pull in at the last minute with possibly worse ratios for a crash to occur.
Helmets is a tough one and should stay as is, ie mandatory for kids; as far as statistics go, the best research probably comes from cyclist accidents as their speed may be similar to a skier. At the end of the day even with a helmet on it may not save you in the worse impact, all it will do is possibly stop superficial skin damage...its the decelleration injury thats the problem, there is only so much cushioning will do to help your skull.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is there a single virtuous snowhead who's never done anything dangerous? Never misjudged the snow surface and lost control? Never tackled a slope that looked within ability but which wasn't? Never thought the beginner in front had plenty of space when they didn't? It's easy for more experienced skiers to sneer at others' lack of judgement, but we all made mistakes when we were learning the sport and our judgement wasn't as refined as it now is.
IMV, overcrowded pistes are by far the biggest problem. The surest way to make sure that some speeding idiot doesn't take me out is to ski some place where there's enough space for me to avoid him and him me.
The trouble is that many resorts are just too greedy to restrict visitor numbers.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jonny Jones, I'm going to chip in that at the weekend the problem wasn't available space, it was (typically but not always [see below] late teen, early 20s males) skiing beyond their ability to stop safely.
For context, I tend to ski generally fairly quickly, although I will zipline the bumps beside the piste rather than stay on piste - I would suggest that I would be at the faster 20% of slope users while in control and still able to avoid/stop if anything untoward happens.
Anyway, I'm cruising towards a very, very obvious piste crossing point (just below Flaine "village") when a young lady goes fleeing past in full sitting-on-the-loo position, straight line and in the "racing snowplough". 90 seconds later she's having trouble remaining upright, screeching in panic and slowing down at the same time. So much for multi-tasking. Lunatic!
Best way to reduce accidents? Mandate 2.00m skinny straight skis.
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| achilles wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I must admit I'm shocked since joining this site and having access to resort news stories that there seem to be so many collisions. I'm certainly not a newbie at skiing and apart from a minor incident of my own, I haven't really seen any examples of this. ... |
I have seen a child knocked off its feet infront of its mother - and the skier at blame ski away quickly. This was comiong off the bottom of a nusery slope at LDA.
I have also been taken out myself by a skier falling onto me on the Super Diable slope - again at LDA.
I have felt at peril because of heavy traffic and reckless skiing at Verbier, and (one more) at LDA - on of all things a green slope (Demoiselles) on the home run, and also on the black Valentin - in that case from the risk of falling skiers attempting a slope beyond their abilities - again on the home run.
LDA features a lot above. To get things into perspective, I go there quite a lot. |
To be fair, I've had to take some anti-achilles evasive action in the past myself. 
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| achilles wrote: |
| and the power to confiscate passes, for reckless skiing. |
They can all ready do this in Austria.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't see how confiscating lift passes would work. What's to stop the offender buying another lift pass or even worse stealing one...?
Overcrowded pistes seem to be a real issue. Why do so many people insist on holidaying during school holidays? Surely only families with school age children and teachers need to do this and they are heavily penalised in terms of cost. The rest of us have a choice when we go and I always choose quiet (and cheaper) weeks. Incidentally, in the days when I went on school ski trips these were always taken during term time...
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FAQ
