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Tour Operator Fiasco

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Boredsurfing wrote:
thefatcontroller, When you going back out to your place? Half term?

Agenterre,
Quote:

the full story around the circumstances leading to the overbooking.

You and I both know for certain that the full story will never come out Toofy Grin wink

I know but cant wash all our dirty laundry Toofy Grin Anyways .. I reckon page 14 by tonight if El Swiller returns at a reasonable hour with a 'light' head! ( I do hope the wine is all stocked up ... could be hell to pay compensation if the Chablis is off)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Page 13, Very Happy can this go the full iphone? wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

the subtle difference is that the forum is not publishing in a way a newspaper does, the individual posters are publishing, unless the Administrator decides to change posts and then the forum becomes more 'newspaper like', but the fact that it is 'capable of editing' i think is irrelevant


Dont think so...... the traditional approach to this has been that the act of publishing something brings with it certain rights and responsibilities and you cannot wash your hands of these on the basis that you are a "hands-off" publisher/forum.

Where forums MIGHT be saved is (as D. Goldsmith mentioned) that a court (or the legislature) might decide that the general good/public policy may be best served by forums not being liable in such cases. Practically, a forum cannot review every post for its legal import and holding them liable would essentially be the end of forums as we know them.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
rayscoops wrote:
alex_heney wrote:
Obviously, there will be a number of factors involved in determining how much compensation you are entitled to, and the price you paid for the holiday will be one of the factors taken into account. But the fact it was cheap does not mean you are not entitled to anything.


actually I would say compensation should be based upon the nature/spec of holiday and not the price


Both will (and should) have an effect.

I did not suggest that "compensation would be based on the price", but only that it would be one of the factors taken into account.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
drkpower, I agree that you can not discharge any liability in a defamation situation just because something is published on a forum, after all defamation is defamation, but if I made a defamatory statement on a forum as an individual about Ringo Star it would have a low impact on his good character because I am not putting my self forward as anything more than an individual of little significance - I am not saying my view is that of the forum and the forum has no vicarious liability because I am a user of free facility (not so sure if I was a subscriber or financial contributor though wink ) and have no legal relationship with the forum, but if I put that view forward as a reporter for a newspaper it would have much more impact and relevance because I am putting my self forward as a representative of that newspaper and I am writing in the name of that newspaper.

Within the vacuum of a forum I would be guilty of defamation, no argument there, but the damages are more likely to £0.01 because the level of damage is negligible, and the forum is unlikely to have any vicarious liability because they are remote from me and what I say, but as a newspaper reporter the impact and severity of the defamation would probably be seen as being greater because it is not just a lone voice but the view of a newspaper as a whole, and the general public may have more reason to believe than the 'one loan voice'.

Damages for defamation is always based upon the impact of such defamation, and as Whistler found out against Ruskin, just because a judge agrees that some one has been defamed, damages do not necessarily flow from such a judgement, as it is the impact of such defamation that is important and not the defamation itself. One person's £1,000 is another person's farthing wink
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You'll need to Register first of course.
Quote:

Me: Hi, I have come for that wonderful vegetarian meal you advertise

Waiter: Oh you, look all the veggie food is off, it wasn't our fault.....we have made you something....don't know what it is....but it may have meet in it.

It's actually worse than that:

Ed: Hi, I have come for that wonderful vegetarian meal you advertise

Waiter: Wonderful, Sir. Will do. Care to order soup in the mean time?

(30 min. passed and the diner has ordered many more drinks, soups and apertizer, etc.)

Waiter: Sorry sir, all our veggie food is off. it wasn't our fault... blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I brought you soemthing else the cook made...

.... (the rest of the back and forth)...

Waiter: Look, if you MUST have veggie, we just don't have it. You don't have to pay for the food you haven't touch. But you'll still have to pay for your drinks and side dishes you've had while waiting for the food.

Ed: I absolutely will do no such thing!

Waiter: Well, we do care about our customers since we're such a top tier resturant. So I will compensate you by charging only 50% of your drinks. But you still have to pay in full for the soups/apertizer! Shocked
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
abc, do they give you full-time internet access at the asylum?

I just came from a very pleasant restaurant (Paternoster Chop House, Paternoster Sq, London EC4). Everything went absolutely perfectly - I got exactly what I ordered and with efficiency and a smile. Super staff (plenty of tugging and doffing... not), very tasty offerings. Can't think of anything to complain about... but there again I could have had a week in a nice Les Arcs chalet (inc flights, transfers and a bit of compo of course) for the same kind of dosh snowHead
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
... and not a bulgarian gap-year student in sight.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Bode Swiller wrote:
abc, do they give you full-time internet access at the asylum?

I'm the one who commits the like of you to the asylum! Smile
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:

drkpower, I agree that you can not discharge any liability in a defamation situation just because something is published on a forum, after all defamation is defamation, but if I made a defamatory statement on a forum as an individual about Ringo Star it would have a low impact on his good character because I am not putting my self forward as anything more than an individual of little significance - I am not saying my view is that of the forum and the forum has no vicarious liability because I am a user of free facility (not so sure if I was a subscriber or financial contributor though ) and have no legal relationship with the forum, but if I put that view forward as a reporter for a newspaper it would have much more impact and relevance because I am putting my self forward as a representative of that newspaper and I am writing in the name of that newspaper.

Within the vacuum of a forum I would be guilty of defamation, no argument there, but the damages are more likely to £0.01 because the level of damage is negligible, and the forum is unlikely to have any vicarious liability because they are remote from me and what I say, but as a newspaper reporter the impact and severity of the defamation would probably be seen as being greater because it is not just a lone voice but the view of a newspaper as a whole, and the general public may have more reason to believe than the 'one loan voice'.

Damages for defamation is always based upon the impact of such defamation, and as Whistler found out against Ruskin, just because a judge agrees that some one has been defamed, damages do not necessarily flow from such a judgement, as it is the impact of such defamation that is important and not the defamation itself. One person's £1,000 is another person's farthing


Absolutley, I agree with that - the effect on the defamed figure would, in most cases, be negligible or at least significantly less then if the defamation had come from a reputable reporter as opposed to a disreputable SnowHead....

I'd just point that, technically, vicariously liability does not apply - the mere fact of publication is all that is required
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Bode Swiller wrote:
I just came from a very pleasant restaurant (Paternoster Chop House, Paternoster Sq, London EC4). Everything went absolutely perfectly - I got exactly what I ordered and with efficiency and a smile. Super staff (plenty of tugging and doffing... not), very tasty offerings. Can't think of anything to complain about... but there again I could have had a week in a nice Les Arcs chalet (inc flights, transfers and a bit of compo of course) for the same kind of dosh snowHead


This meal has been transferred to 'Swiller's Dinners' [Apres Zone] for further consumption.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Whats happening................this thread is slipping way too far.........surely we have not exhausted the inane legal discussion and TO bashing Puzzled
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
you and bode killed it
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
And me.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Swiller is out to lunch
ski holidays
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
drkpower, the natural end to a thread I am afraid, try not to get so attached wink
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
That said, I'm coming round to the instinct (which I originally rejected from Swiller) that the price paid for the holiday may have more relevance to this discussion than might first appear.

Also, ed named the tour operator in his original post to this thread. In my view that was a mistake since the advice sought wasn't specific to the tour operator, but it brought the company concerned into the headlights of negative publicity in his opening gambit.

The internet has an explosive atmosphere. This thread serves to demonstrate how uneasily commerce can sit within it, while at the same time benefit from it. It's definitely not a place for dispute resolution!


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 16-01-09 13:18; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
David Goldsmith,

Yes, on the whole I agree with you about naming the Tour Operator in the original post. If I did it again, I wouldn't do that.

I didn't put any names into the title on purpose, but thought they would be OK hidden within the post, I put them in as I thought that the forum might have advice that was relevant to that particular tour operator and/or travel agent. Something like: "You need to talk to PipT, he's big at Neilsons and posts to the list - He will sort it out!".

I totally agree that a forum is not the place for dispute resolution!! It may of been naive of me, but at the time I originally posted, I didn't feel I was in a dispute resolution, I just wanted any advice on what was the best thing to do. I was under quite a bit of stress and just trying to make sense of a situation I had never been in before.

It is easy to look back now and say ....I should of done it this way or that way, but I just posted as I saw it....and when you guys asked me a question.....I did my best to answer as honestly as I could. I had no idea it was going to go on so long. I was expecting to get 2 or 3 non-committal answers and that would be that.

There is no doubt that it can be an uneasy life for commerce within a forum. If the holiday had gone ahead as planned - Would I of posted to the list about how wonderful the TO was? Most probably not. But then, if I had, would the thread of run for 13 pages.

On the other hand....the thread continues.....and at some stage it will come to some kind of conclusion and I will (mod-permitting) and with all parties permission, post to tell you all what it was.

Believe me. no-one would be more thrilled than me to post to the list and say....it took a long time, but in the end I feel that the TO really pulled out the plugs and dealt with this superbly.
The thread 'may' of given 'negative publicity' so far....but they still have the perfect opportunity to put it all right AND have that fully reflected upon on this forum.

I never wanted to be in this position....I just wanted a holiday that fitted the requirements of my family.

Regarding the cost of the holiday.... I have already agreed that it was cheap. What do you expect for a holiday booked in November for one of the least popular weeks of the season. With a big family - you just gotta think this way. But I am not sure why this 'may have more relevance to this discussion than might first appear'. I bought a product at the going rate at that time. I didn't choose the price, I just took advantage of it. I don't see how the price can effect the quality of the goods. If you buy a TV in a sale, you don't expect it to be of less quality than one you bought at full price.

cheers

eib

This thread - Dead? Nah, it just sat down and had a rest!
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. . . but if you only paid £25 per person for the holiday would you really be expecting greater than £25 per person as compensation as well as your money back? In that sense what you paid does have a bearing on what compensation you are likely to be offered.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
We never wanted compensation.

We just wanted the holiday that We booked.

I think the compensation should be enough to enable me to replace what the Tour operator refused to provide.

As we are in negotiations off-forum with the TO, We don't think now is the time or place to say exactly what we would expect or on what basis it should be worked out.

But the holiday was a lot more than £25 a head!!! I said it was cheap.....not 'give-away'

Do Neislons sell holiday at that price? If so, I bet there not in Courchevel.

But even if We had bought the holidays for that amount, I would still expect them to honour it.

cheers

eib
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ed.bremner wrote:


Yes, on the whole I agree with you about naming the Tour Operator in the original post. If I did it again, I wouldn't do that.


OK. Maybe we should start again.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Toofy Grin Twisted Evil NehNeh
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
But surely if one pays for their holiday and it is subsequently withdrawn and the alternative offered fails to meet the original criteria which results in the holiday not being taken, I feel that the responsible party (in this case the TO) should recompense the injured party suitably to enable them to have the option to re-book a similar holiday when they're able to take it. At no loss to the injured party.

I recently had a camcorder stolen. I claimed on the insurance. I bought the product in a sale situation. Between the purchase and the theft, the product was discontinued and replaced with a higher spec version at a higher price. After a bit of to and fro, when I stated that I was not prepared to accept an alternative product from a different producer on the basis that the software was not compatible with the original, thus impacting on accompanying computer programmes, the insurer agreed to reimburse for the full value of the higher spec version.

Of course, I understand the main difference here is the matter of insurance. However, the essential arguement has similarities.
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