 Poster: A snowHead
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As an asside on a recent thread I asked what qualification a ski teacher needed in order to lead off-piste. (after all, it is only glaciers and terrain needing ropes which you have to be a UIAGM guide to take people on).
Someone answered, however I cannot find the thread. I was reviewing my definition for "Bend ze Knees" on Mountain Guides and I thought that this info should be included.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowball, according to the guide who was taking the group we had at La Grave last season, easiski was qualified to lead us anywhere off glacier. Equally, Christian who led us off piste at the MSB was an instructor, not a guide.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes, and the last person who took me down the Bellecote North Face was also not a full guide. But not everyone who has a teaching qualification can lead off piste - you need a great deal of snowcraft knowledge to be safe. So what qualification do you need?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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snowball,
Have a look at the attached link to BASI web site. This is the pre course info for ISTD level. There is also a requirement for ISIA level.
http://www.basi.org.uk/courses.aspx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't have time to read through it right now - but is that the answer ? Is it ISTD? Is that international? I gather ski teachers sometimes bend the rules about this.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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snowball, I'm not sure if there are national laws which govern this, or whether individual ski schools and/or national professional bodies like BASI which dictate this. At ISIA level there is a requirement for an assessed course on leading groups off-piste, and at ISTD there is a more comprehensive assessed course for leading off-piste, which includes day tours and some basic ropework.
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snowball, my understanding is
Ski Teacher ISIA - Trained to teach all levels of skiing on and off piste (within the resort boundary) within a ski school;
Ski Teacher Diploma ISTD - The highest level of ski instructor, can teach skiing on and off piste anywhere except for glaciated terrain or where the use of ropes or ice axes is planned. Can operate autonomously or within a ski school;
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skimottaret, thanks - though "within resort boundary" must be USA (there is no such thing in Europe) - and within the boundary is avalanche patrolled in the USA.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In France, for any off-piste with a professional thats not on glacier and that does not require a rope to access: BEES ski, all exams passed. On glacier and if rope-access is required, you need a mountain-guide.
Owners of a foreign qualification do not have the right to take people off piste before the have the french equivalent.
I know the Brits have a lot of trouble accepting this, but in case of accident, your insurance may take this as a reason not to pay.
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snowball, "within resort boundary" in Europe refers to lift serviced off piste, no skinning or rope work but some boot packing i think is okay but depends on local laws. I doubt any ISIA level person would feel confident to take clients touring for instance but a bit off piste near a pisted run would be alright.
rade, Interesting i heard that last week as well that only ISTD/BEES 1/ Carte Pro can take people off piste in France, although ISIA is technically "good enough" training is not legal in France... This came up in context of watching a Ski Club Reps course who lead people off piste without neccessary qualifications. The ISTD I was training with said there are rumblings that in France they may crack down on their activities when in the past they turned a blind eye...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, skimottaret, AIUI there is now an additional module beyond the ISTD that allows for more adventurous off-piste, including limited rope and glacier stuff - not UIAGM but a step in that direction. I know gilleski has it, but other trainers I was with last week don't, so of course they wouldn't go under ropes on the glacier. philsmith was also talking about this last year, but I don't know if he has it himself yet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rade, if ESF instructors actually followed this then perhaps the Brits would have a little more desire to be understanding. I see non-BEES ESF instructors taking clients off-piste all the time around here.
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I'm not judging, nor defending the ESF (which is just a school, not an official instance). Just told what the rules are..............
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You know it makes sense.
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The course being referred to is the EMS award (European mountain security). All newly qualified ISTDs will take this award as part of their full qualification. The EMS has been integrated in to all the Diploma qualifications that are part of Euro group (or whatever they are now calling themselves).
With EMS an instructor can lead tours on skins outside the patrolled area of a ski resort. The tours are intended to be day tours. They must still avoid glacial terrain and not plan to use additional alpinism techniques (roped climbing, ice axes etc.), although they will carry a rope and know how to use in for providing additional security.
IFMGA - anything on any terrain
Ski Furher (Austria) is a qualification that allows holders to do the same job as IFMGA guides in the winter on skis, including glaciers (Only in Austria)
EMS - All off piste situations including skinning and boot packing. Includes touring outside a ski area but not over glaciers.
ISIA - off piste within the ski area. Off piste must be accessed from a lift (with no walking higher) and must end back in an organised ski area (Austria, other countries, other laws)!
Grey area? Just to the right or left of the Lesse in Tignes, under the ropes for example. Technically on a glacier but frequently used by ski instructors. (BASI very much so in the past. In fact on my ISTD tech we skied the nose of the glacier with our trainer) You find these situations all over the Alps (Hintertux has loads of opportunities just on the other side of the ropes). These are sometimes seen as recognised ski routes-ish. If you had a glacial related accident in you group in one of these situations (Crevasse) you would probably be F****D I would think.
PSG
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| snowball, "within resort boundary" in Europe refers to lift serviced off piste, no skinning or rope work but some boot packing i think is okay but depends on local laws. |
In other words it includes going off the back of the mountain into another valley - even if it ends up many miles beyond any lifts or pistes? It only seems to exclude touring and ski mountaineering, really.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, No my explanation is poor and gilleski, is correct, ISIA can only take groups down lift serviced off piste ending back in resort. No climbing or boot packing allowed, my mistake.... ISTD or higher needed to tour and/or end up in remote areas.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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however, its worth remembering that most fatal avalanche and sliding accidents happen in or very close to resort boundarys. The ISIA remit is still one that requires a high level of education to be competent. The BASI course is one of the best in the ISIA group (other alpine European nations included).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gilleski, thanks for clarifying the situation (as much as it is possible to be clear about these things!). Does the EMS assess off-piste ski ability, or is it more about snow safety, route planning, etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| snowball wrote: |
As an asside on a recent thread I asked what qualification a ski teacher needed in order to lead off-piste. (after all, it is only glaciers and terrain needing ropes which you have to be a UIAGM guide to take people on).
Someone answered, however I cannot find the thread. I was reviewing my definition for "Bend ze Knees" on Mountain Guides and I thought that this info should be included. |
What a very good Thread subject ..... obvious one may think, but a minefield in practice. I have found great care is needed in selecting 'Guides' ... as there are a few posing, or stating that they are 'Guides' when in fact they do not have any qualifications whatever ... and taking money for it. I know of cases in Paradiski where three skiers were injured in seperate incidents, while with the same 'Guide'. Some do have some instructor qualifications, but not for guiding. Apart from the most important aspects of safety, snowsporters insurances can be void if accidents occur and law enforcement in France anyway is beginning to clamp down hard when such cases are discovered. Most underwriters specify their conditions regarding off-piste and guides, but more often than not such details are in the small print. The acid test is the guides/instructors own insurance provision and I tend to look for that now, as some of the rogues have only a good spiel and nothing else. If they are insured for the job then that is a good starting point, but I would also try to get some local knowledge if possible - to find out how good they are, how safe they are and what their temperament is like.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rade wrote: |
In France, for any off-piste with a professional thats not on glacier and that does not require a rope to access: BEES ski, all exams passed. On glacier and if rope-access is required, you need a mountain-guide.
Owners of a foreign qualification do not have the right to take people off piste before the have the French equivalent. |
Just curious - in this era of "harmonized standards" and equal access to employment in the EU, how does France get away with this?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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BernardC, most interesting thread this year IMV - not much to gather form the internet, either - and this PDF file suggests a lack of official cohesion.
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| Ski mountaineering and off-piste skiing are still relatively uncharted territory, as is probably to be expected, bar the need to safeguard the public’s safety. |
I see 'Mayoral decrees banning or regulating off-piste practices' was on the agenda for the European Law Forum on Winter Sports 28-30 November, 2008. Wonder what came out of it.
It would be interesting to see what sH professional instructors and guides have to say on this one.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 22-12-08 1:48; edited 1 time in total
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i always though the dividing line was "an element of mountaineering." that's mountaineering in the broadest sense so glacier travel, scrambling once a rope is required etc
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Quite an interesting agenda actually. 20+ years of committee work at a series of Alpine resorts should sort it all out. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Levitt, 'before equivalent'. All brit ISTDs have equivalence. No getting away with it involved.
gilleski, WRT glaciated areas that are used by ski instructors, our L'Echines is a perfect example - perfectly safe, the lower part runs parallel to a run that can be v dangerous with loonies, and is often safer. Main descent often the best off piste snow around. It's a risk but .....  I always tell peeps I'm not insured to take them there. They can then choose to go round if they want to, but no-one has.
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i was looking at BASI site today for something else and they have a good review of what the various options are and what they dont include:
The ISTD EMS module does not provide training or assessment for skiers to
o Carry and use an ice axe (MSL, EML, Guide)
o Carry and use crampons (MSL, EML, Guide)
o Set out with the intention of leading a group in poor visibility and therefore requiring advanced navigation skills (MSL, EML, Guide)
o Set out with the intention of using a rope to provide security for the group (Guide)
o Lead groups on multi day excursions using tents, snow shelters, bivouacs, manned or unmanned mountain huts or bothies (MSL, EML, Guide)
o Lead groups on glaciated terrain (Guide)
Should you wish to undertake any of the activities above whilst leading a group of skiers, you should, having completed this module, attend further training and assessment courses provided by the organisations noted below.
Winter Mountain Leader Award ML(W)
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required for the leadership of hill walking parties in winter conditions. The award is administered by Mountain Leader Training Scotland and is valid throughout the United Kingdom and Ireland. Minimum age at registration is 20. Prior to registration candidates must hold the Mountain Leader Award and have undertaken a minimum of 20 quality winter mountain days in at least three mountain areas of the United Kingdom. Candidates attend a minimum of 6 days of training and 5 days of assessment. The courses examine snow and avalanche awareness, snow holes and emergency shelters, ice axe and crampon skills, security on steep ground, cold weather injuries, navigation, winter weather and expedition skills. Candidates should hold a current first aid certificate at the time of assessment. For further details contact MLTS.
Mountain Ski Leader Award (MSL)
This award is administered by Snowsport Scotland, to attend this course you will need to have a ‘Winter Mountain Leader’ award. www.snowsportscotland.org
European Mountain Leader Award (EML)
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required for the provision of leading services within the European Community for walking parties. The award is administered by Mountain Leader Training UK and is valid throughout the European Community. Prior to registration candidates must hold the Mountain Leader Award, have attended Winter Mountain Leader training and have extensive overseas walking experience. Candidates attend 5 days of training and 4 days of assessment. For further details contact MLTUK. www.mltuk.org
IFMGA Mountain Guide
This scheme trains and assesses experienced people in the skills required for the provision of instruction and guiding services in climbing, skiing and mountaineering on rock, ice and snow in all conditions and all seasons at BMG and IFMGA international standards. The award is administered by the British Association of Mountain Guides and is valid world-wide.
Candidates should register with the BMG and have gained substantial experience of United Kingdom and alpine mountaineering. Pre-requirements for this scheme are broad and include 50 rock climbs at E1 5b, 50 winter climbs at grade IV/V, alpine experience at TD and skiing experience that includes off-piste and touring terrain. For further details contact
BMG. www.bmg.org.uk
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, your ski ability should be strong by the time you get to this course. You will ski in some exposed and steep terrain. Technique is not assessed but your ability to lead a safe line in all terrain and conditions will be. When doing the ISIA course your are trained in many areas, on the EMS you will need to be confident in the topics covered on the ISIA and ready to take on further training. Between the EMS training and assessment you log days touring (5 with BASI) I did mine with www.iasisnowsports.ie and we where asked to log 10.
As I was already ISTD when this course came in (2004) I was exempt like all ISTDs qualified before this date. However, the core of my business in the past has been off piste courses so I put myself through the course. Did it with IASI as I just happened to be working with them as a trainer in Chamoinx. Our trainer was fantastic, Robbie Fenlon IFMGA based in Chamonix.
When I took the EMS training we used crampons, but not an axe. Our trainer explained that the definitions on equipment are really about defining the two professions, and in reality if you where heading out touring you would be best to take crampons (same as you would with your ski crampons). Same with rope work. We where trained on our ability to set up basic belays to provide security for "unforeseen" situations and how to handle a rope. In reality, if heading out on a tour with a group you would take a rope.
However, the EMS is an award that enables ski teachers to teach skiing to higher level clients that are looking for more challenging terrain. The way I would define our "guiding" role is that we as instructors are about the turns, so sometimes we need to hike a bit for the turns. For me personally that may mean a 20 - 40 minuet boot pack or skin to access some skiing. The point I am making is my profession is about the skiing, not the touring. My clients want maximum turn opportunity's and accept they may need to earn them, but, if I started skinning clients for hours they would probably be pissed off! However, if your going to take that hike with your clients, you need the additional skills.
If clients want to improve their skiing, then they come to a ski instructor. If clients want to go touring or ski mountaineering, then they are best to take a guide.
As ski instructors we need to be able to teach all levels including off piste. The ISIA and EMS courses are designed to allow us to still do that whilst keeping our clients safe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gilleski, thanks for that. I think I'll probably stop after doing the BASI Mountain Safety course (booked for March), but it's interesting to see how much further the EMS goes.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
European Mountain Leader Award (EML)
This scheme trains and assesses people in the skills required for the provision of leading services within the European Community for walking parties. The award is administered by Mountain Leader Training UK and is valid throughout the European Community. Prior to registration candidates must hold the Mountain Leader Award, have attended Winter Mountain Leader training and have extensive overseas walking experience. Candidates attend 5 days of training and 4 days of assessment. For further details contact MLTUK. www.mltuk.org |
that's more than 4 years out of date, the EML no longer exists and hasn't since 2004. BASI need to update their site.
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