Poster: A snowHead
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hanuk26,
From what you have now said, about the woman just asking your shoe size and not measuring your fit, she obviously doesn't have a clue about fitting ski boots. Are you sure she actually works in the shop?
Get your money back and go elsewhere! I don't think trying a smaller pair will help because you don't know how they are supposed to fit, the person wh should know in the shop patently hasn't a clue. Unfortunately CEM is in Bicester which is a long way from Sheffield.
You can hide "ugly" boots under nice ski pants and when you're skiing you shouldn't be looking at your skis never mind your boots. Good Luck.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM wrote: |
putting heel hold pads and packing into a boot when it is new is a last resort tactic when all else has failed not a solution to amke a big boot smaller, take them back....sounds like that is what you plan anyway, get a smaller boot or a refund....fatbob, the sale of goods act is an interesting beast it works both ways.... if you leave the store with an item you are deemed to have accepted it |
Does that mean that the OP isn't entitled to a refund?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nick L wrote: |
endoman, I strongly suspect that was Franck (short and early balding?) He sold my son a pair of boots in April, but refused to give my wife any has he said that as it was end of season he didn't have the correct boot for her and was not going to sell her something just for the sake of it! |
Yep it was Frank, we got along really well! I told him my boots were a little uncomfy when walking, he said " They are ski boots not walking boots" then ground a smidge off and they were perfect.
I had booked an appointment, told him my level of skiing, he looked at my feet, went off and brought a pair of boots that were spot on. I had no input into boot type, hence they are bright yellow with blue clips, but fit superbly!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, no not what i said, i said the sale of goods act is an interesting thing which often people like to quote.....does it mean the customer is always right...NO it means the shop and the customer must each take responsibility for different factors
if the boot had been skied in then it ecomes a different story, if the boot is not skied in then i would say 100% fair game for a refund...but that is where a fitter will stand by their work and a salesman may not, and a less reputable dealer may use the sale of goods act to worm out the other way....the whole thing is that the sale of goods act is to protect the consumer AND the retailer otherwise people would be buying boots, having them fitted then bringing them back for a refund after their holiday..nice free rental!!!
BTW if someone is not happy with the service i offer i want to fix it, if i am unable to fix it then it is down to that individual to work with me to determine what we do between us
i feel like i am on trial here for someoen elses boot fit problems
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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just to add,
who decides what is too big or too small, me, S&R, Ellis Brigham, AN Other ski shop in X,Y or Z resort it is very much a perception, what is right for someone is often completely wrong for someone else..... all i can work from is experience and convention.... so why does AN Other ski shop in resort X think that 35mm is a good fit when i am looking for something less than 25mm [much less for performance]
a lot of the time it is down to the fitter to judge the client and the client to trust the fitter...... sucess rates vary from person to person, what does the consumer tolerate/want/need the shape of the boot is often as important as the size, it is the shape which dertermines how the foot interacts with the shell/liner and determines if there is a snug even fit or pressure points and gaps
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sale of Goods Act has now been superceded by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations which came into force in the early part of this year. As a part of this there is a section which covers Misleading Practices - where material information is omitted, or information is unclear or untimely which causes the average consumer to take a transactional decision which he/she would not otherwise have taken.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd imagine that when you went to a ski boot shop expecting expert advice - which you didn't get - and instead received substandard advice which led you to make a poor decision you would be entitled to exhange the boots at the very least...
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HelenM, can you define what the correct size is please
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CEM,
Just asking your opinion not putting you on any sort of trial esp for anybody elses work. If the boots are too big I actually believe Hanuk26 should take some of the blame esp as someone else recommened smaller boots to begin with. It appears that sometimes the bootfitter can't win either ....
1. he/she either offers a boot that is the correct size and shape but the customer belives it as being too tight and goes elsewhere or
2. they offer a bigger size shell get the sale, the customer is happy but they run the risk of the buyer complaining at a later date and potentially having to take back a used boot.
If I was in Hanuk26's position I'd be glad to have the opportunity to change the boot (esp if it has been permanently modified in any way) but wouldn't expect a refund.
Seems to be a very gray area which looks to be weighted against the bootfitter. Still remember that thread where someone slated off a ski shop's bootfitting on here then the owner came on with a different version of the story.
HelenM,
Do people pay for an expert boot fitting service or do they just buy a pair of boots like you would buy a pair of shoes?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Quote: |
1. he/she either offers a boot that is the correct size and shape but the customer belives it as being too tight and goes elsewhere or
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buys the boot then brings them back because a spotty kid in a resort shop [or more likey old father time] says thay are too small and that they need a bigger pair...if there is any pain whatsoever the consumer will believe that the boot is too small and end up buying a new bigger pair
as i asked Helen above define what the correct size is
i routinely have to go down a size from the measured size as many boots are so over sized that if you stick with what the gauge says the boot is way too big IMO [as we as yet do not know who decides what size is correct ]
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I don't think the boots in question have been customised or "permanently modified" in DB's words above.
Hanuk26 thinks they have been customised because bits of padding have been inserted between the liner and the shell. Customisation is when 1 or more of the following have been done:-
1) A footbed (Orthotc) has been moulded to the shape of the sole of the skier's foot, however this can simply be replaced with the original footbed.
2) The plastic shell has been heat treated and reshaped.
3) The plastic shell has been cut, ground or melted.
4) The liner has been permanently altered by cutting or heat moulded.
If the bits of padding have been attached to the shell or liner using glue, rivets or screws that would be customisation. However the fact the shop will take them back makes one conclude the boots have not been customised or permanently modified.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM,
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[as we as yet do not know who decides what size is correct ]
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On the evidence that you squeezed my tootsies into 25's as opposed to snow and rock suggeting a 26.5 and 4 snow weeks later they still fit like gloves. Despite the fact I thought you were cutting my toes off at the time and cursed your name at every turn for my first 3 days on snow, I know whose opinion I trust as to 'what the correct size is' and that halo suits you well.
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CEM wrote: |
HelenM, can you define what the correct size is please |
Nope, but just as I don't pretend to be a lawyer nor do I pretend to offer an expert boot fitting service!
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You know it makes sense.
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DB wrote: |
HelenM,
Do people pay for an expert boot fitting service or do they just buy a pair of boots like you would buy a pair of shoes? |
I know what my answer to that is, but I wouldn't want to answer on behalf of anyone else.
I had no intention of slinging mud at anyone, and actually I don't think I did, I was just pointing out that a lot of the legal bumf that was being spouted was incorrect - and I even qualified that by saying that I'm not a lawyer. Equally I'm not a bootfitter so will retire semi-gracefully from this thread now I think.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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HelenM, too late damage done, you stated that the information i gave was incorrect, i still maintain that if I a retailer contact trading standards they will take a balanced view, they are there to support both the retailer and the consumer
in respect to the last post, what would your answer be, don't hide behind the not wanting to speak for anyone else, i asked for your opinion, not that of someone else, as with everything it is an opinion.....but i am guessing that you are of the I want instant gratification camp, you want a boot which feels great in the shop...good luck
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nor do I pretend to offer an expert boot fitting service!
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BTW i consider that i offer a specialist service, you have never been in my office, please do not pretend to know what service i offer as from that statement you appear to think i do not offer something of worth
mmm 27 posts and an expert....love it
good night all
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Poster: A snowHead
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I decide what the correct size is, i thought we'd established that years ago.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM wrote: |
HelenM, too late damage done, you stated that the information i gave was incorrect, i still maintain that if I a retailer contact trading standards they will take a balanced view, they are there to support both the retailer and the consumer
in respect to the last post, what would your answer be, don't hide behind the not wanting to speak for anyone else, i asked for your opinion, not that of someone else, as with everything it is an opinion.....but i am guessing that you are of the I want instant gratification camp, you want a boot which feels great in the shop...good luck
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nor do I pretend to offer an expert boot fitting service!
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BTW i consider that i offer a specialist service, you have never been in my office, please do not pretend to know what service i offer as from that statement you appear to think i do not offer something of worth
mmm 27 posts and an expert....love it
good night all
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Ok, I can see you have misunderstood the tone of what I have said. I said I don't pretend to offer an expert bootfitting service because I - that is me, Helen, not you, DON'T OFFER AN EXPERT BOOT FITTING SERVICE.
I am quite sure that you are excellent at what you do, I have read enough glowing reports of your service to believe that that is the case.
As for your first paragraph, the only thing that I stated was incorrect in any post was regarding the sale of goods act. It has been superceded. I gave details of a couple of relevant points of the new legislation. I know this for a number of reasons, one of which was spending most of yesterday afternoon discussing this in a business situation with a consumer law expert. Incidentally, one of his comments was that where these matters go to court generally the burden of proof is on the business to prove themselves, not the customer, as the legislation in his view is weighted towards the customer. Again, I am not a lawyer.
My take on boot fitting - I want ones that fit me well at the end of a week of skiing, not at the beginning. That's why I bought mine in resort, so I could keep getting any kinks ironed out over my time there. Maybe that makes me a moron in your view. OK. I can live with that.
On the 27 posts making me an expert thing. Nope, and never claimed to be. But there are people with a far higher post count than me who aren't experts either - and I'd humbly suggest that if you recommend that people look at post count as an indicator of expertise you might be giving them a bit of duff advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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HelenM, Colin sounds unusually spikey, don't worry he's a sweet man.
P.S. You did the right thing, buying in resort. XX
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CEM, Chill dude, this isn't like you, leave the angry bootfitter stuff to us grumpy, arrogant Chamonix types. XXX
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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HelenM wrote: |
Sale of Goods Act has now been superceded by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations which came into force in the early part of this year. As a part of this there is a section which covers Misleading Practices - where material information is omitted, or information is unclear or untimely which causes the average consumer to take a transactional decision which he/she would not otherwise have taken.
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Sale of Goods Act has not been superseded at all.
Those regulations are additional to SOGA, not in any way a replacement for it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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HelenM wrote: |
Ok, I can see you have misunderstood the tone of what I have said. I said I don't pretend to offer an expert bootfitting service because I - that is me, Helen, not you, DON'T OFFER AN EXPERT BOOT FITTING SERVICE.
I am quite sure that you are excellent at what you do, I have read enough glowing reports of your service to believe that that is the case.
As for your first paragraph, the only thing that I stated was incorrect in any post was regarding the sale of goods act. It has been superceded. I gave details of a couple of relevant points of the new legislation. I know this for a number of reasons, one of which was spending most of yesterday afternoon discussing this in a business situation with a consumer law expert. . |
Unfortunately, you clearly completely misunderstood what that expert was telling you (or said expert is no such thing).
The regulations have no impact whatsoever on SOGA.
And they don't even alter the rights of the consumer as such.
They make it a criminal offence for the retailer to do various things, but do not provide any civil remedies for either consumers or retailers, which is one of the main purposes of SOGA.
The regulations you speak of are here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/uksi_20081277_en_1
You will find that the Sale of Goods Act is only even mentioned once in the regulations, and that is only to specify a refernce to it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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back to the OP
the consumer went to store X, who recomended 22.0, consumer decided couldn't get foot into 22.0, consumer leaves and goes to store Y who offer 23.5 consumer leaves happy[ we assume] so who is wrong
Store X for lack of customer education explaining that it is the correct size but needs to bed in
Store Y for giving the consumer what they were happy with [proabbly following the i tried 22.0 and it was too small conversation]
the consumer for not being educated or for wanting instant gratification from the boot
it is a lose lose situation
going back to the boots in question, sounds very much like 22.0 was the correct size, but the wrong shape making it appear too small
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 5-12-08 8:55; edited 1 time in total
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guys - i completely appreciate that i am a bit at fault with regards to these boots. If i cant get a refund then fair enough i will take them skiing with me when i go and try them out, but i am going to try a size smaller to see of it feels better. I was merely asking whether 2-3 fingers between shell and liner was too much, if i though the rest of the boots fitted... i appreciate that it is very difficult for a boot fitter to fit your boots properly when the customer (me) is telling her it feels fine.... i just was getting a bit worked up about all the horror stories i have read about ski boots being too big... thanks for all the advice though, and i would completely understand if i was not able to get a refund from the ski shop i bought the boots from.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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hanuk26,
Ski boots are the most important piece of ski equipment you will buy. You need to get boots that fit or you will be in pain or not be able to ski as well as you could.
You shouldn't be shy about asking for a refund if the shop has offered one take it. I've just had a full refund for a holiday I paid for last Monday when I found out that the tour operator had booked me onto a flight that couldn't transport my skis. You have to be polite but assertive.
Next time tell the fitter that you have never had boots fitted for you before. If the fitter is a good one he should give you more guidance on how they should feel and fit.
I can't remember if you said where you're going skiing. It maybe, if there's a good shop in resort, going ti=o have boots fitted as soon as you get to your resort.
Again ask Snowheads if they know of any good boot fitters in the resort you're going to.
Good Luck.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM,
If you're getting any flak on this thread just ignore it and don't waste your time replying to it. I believe that you're the only boot expert we have on this thread.
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You know it makes sense.
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sorry think i have confused everyone : i wasnt expecting a refund.. i really just wanted to take my boots back and see what she thought as to the gap between shell and heel and was just wanting to try on a smaller size to see if it fitted better re length of shell.... if it did i was hoping the lady in the shop would exchange it... if not then i would try them when i went skiing in jan and see how they felt...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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hanuk26,
I thought the lady in the shop had offered a refund.
The lady in the shop appears not to know how to fit ski boots. If you get your feet into the smaller boots the lady in the shop still won't fit them properly. The shop you've gone to sells boots but doesn't have a trained boot fitter. I'm sure I could do a better job of it.
I don't want you to waste your money (I've done that many times in the past).
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Poster: A snowHead
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shall i come and see you with my boots then !!! she didnt actually say the word refund.. but said i could try a smaller size and she would look at them. I think she is a trained boot fitter... but does it a bit differently to everyone else.. my main concern is not how the boot feels as it feels snug and supported but just the gap between shell and heel i think it bigger than it should be... how tight should the boot fit???
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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hanuk26,
I doubt you will get your money back. The shop will probably want to keep your business and offer you something else. This something else will normally be another item she has in stock or can order from her stockists. All said and done she is running a business and trying to please customers.
In your position I would probably take the trouble to find out which boot would fit me (even if this meant going to another shop with a large selection or a visit to CEM) and then see if the shop can order them for you. Paying a bit extra now could well be worth it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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hanuk26,
You're welcome to come and see me. However I'm going to Val D'Isere this weekend for 2 weeks' skiing.
If you're willing to travel to London from Sheffield then I strongly recommend you go to Bicester near Oxford. Go and see CEM his details are on this thread. I've never met him but everyone who has been to him for boot fitting have recommended him.
I have now contributed as much pratical advice as I can on this matter.
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