AT/Freeride boots' battle

A snowHead

Having spent many years pooh-poohing the poor selection of touring boots that were also capable of driving a half decent ski down a half decent slope in half decent snow conditions - or more pertinently, in utterly crap snow conditions - it seems that this season is the season that may actually provide us with a solution.

There is a problem though. The new Black Diamond Factors claim a flex index of 130 (that's pretty stiff) which must be on the standard flex calibration. However, I have it on good authority that that the Scarpa Skookum and Dynafitt Zzeus are in fact stiffer. Having used both manufacturers' offerings in the past, I know that they are not famed for their stiffness - not required for ski mountaineering or telemarking - and am having trouble believing that they have addressed this properly. Endorphins, G-Rides and Megarides were never near the alpine flex scale...

But what about the Tornado Pro with a vibram sole? No flex rating given on the Scarpa blurb... Axon's are getting good press from the manufacturer but little elsewhere. Lou at Wild Snow writes good reports but they are very technical and do not seem to compare the various different options out there.

Has anyone had a chance to drive any of these and have an opinion? (Usually no shortage of those here...) Or is it a case of sticking with the Nordica Speed Machines for everything and accepting that the foot-borne descents will be a slippy adventure once again!

And by the way we have a metre of white stuff in the garden with more falling.

snowHead

A snowHead

if they fit your feet, try some Garmont Shamans - a proper boot with vibram soles

I think the SMALLone said they were very similar to Nordica boots so they may be the answer

i believe the tornado pro is no stiffer than a spirit 4. i have the latter for my touring boots and they are great for that but they aren't quite a do everything boot. that said, CEM showed me some spirit 4s he was working on to beef up which looked like a pretty interesting option

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Here's a similar thread

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=44900&highlight=

just in case you haven't already seen them - plenty of opinions here
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8

The people who tend to get away with one boot to do it all (such as meself) are light weights (less than 75 kg). I'm looking at all these new boots too as my Garmont adrenalins are 3 years old now. There doesn't appear a massive advantage for me to switch from Garmont at the moment though and I'll probably wait another year to see what the real pro/cons are after people have been using the many new AT boot offerings on the snow.

The BD's look heavy without being stiffer than other lighter AT boots. The shaman doesn't have a walk mode, might be a lot cheaper just putting a vibram sole on an alpine boot.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Powderhound, Sportis in Richti usually has a good selection of touring boots. I'm going down on Thurs eve to try some - will prob be looking at the Zzeus and the Radium, don't think he stocks Black Diamond. Having said that, of course, you will exert more leverage on your boots' flex than I will Wink

(I started a thread a little further down the page - edit: I see DB has already linked to it)

Half a metre down here and seriously thinking about taking Fri off to ski Smile

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

^^^ the Shaman does not have a walk mode. the vibram sole is rockered which makes them better for walking. skinning - they are like any other alpine boot (ie ok for a bit but not great). they aren't an AT boot but they are great if you approach them in the right way - ie a proper beefy alpine boot modified to make scrambles over rocks, snowy ridges etc a bit less heart-stopping!

as far as sticking vibram soles on alpine boots is concerned, isn't the jury still out on whether this weakens the boot structurally?

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

eng_ch,

After all it is free

Powderhound, probably Flims (Laax side not open until Sat) - open, loadsa snow (see my snow report) and I have a season pass Twisted Evil

But I could be persuaded to go elsewhere

R will almost certainly be in Laax over the w/e (Fri eve onwards) as TwoLeftSkis will be over.

Would be brill if you could be tempted - I was expecting to ski alone

DB, I have Shamans which replaced some decent Atomic freeride boots (R11s). The Shamans are better than those - they are basically a slightly consumerised plug boot

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I am watching this with great interest.
I have some Nordicas which I bought about 10 years ago, for comfort, guess what, they are now really sloppy on my feet, and hopeless in rough conditions . So I am in the market this year for some new boots. I hope this thread runs a bit as I have not got my head around all the new boots out there.
FWIW I want a boot with plenty of room in the toe box, that`s nice and stiff for downhill, but still good for doing multi day tours, Dyna fit not important and I dont expect a one boot will do everything.
I am off to Chamonix in a couple of weeks so I will be calling in the zoo.
Any suggestions.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Factor is the stiffest by far.

SMALLZOOKEEPER, have you still got some?

You know it makes sense.

Re ordered this morning but i think Method would work better for you,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Powderhound, I have Garmont Mega Rides, very light, great on and off piste, not sure what the flex index is though.

A snowHead

SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks, I think you are right, I am not a fan of super stiff boot anyway, I like a bit of ankle flex, my DH boots are 100/90 and I find them fine.

From DB`s link
"120 - Garmont Shamen*

110 - Garmont Astral*

100 - Scarpa Hurricane*, Black Diamond Factor (?)

90 - Scarpa Typhoon/Skookum, Garmont Endorphin, Garmont Axon, Dynafit Aero Freeride (4-buckle), Black Diamond Method (?)

85 - Scarpa Tornado/Pro (black tongue), Scarpa Spirit 4 (black tongue), Garmont Adrenaline, Dynafit ZZeus, Dynafit Zzero CF 4-buckle, Salomon Ellipse e2

80 - Scarpa Denali XT/TT, Scarpa Spirit 4 (green tongue), Lowa Struktura Rodeo/Pro (?), Dynafit Zzero PX 4-buckle

75 - Scarpa Spirit 3, Garmont Megaride/G-Ride, Lowa Struktura Evo, Dynafit Aero Speed (3-buckle), Dyanfit Zzero CF 3-buckle

70 - Scarpa Matrix, Old Scarpa Denali (4-buckle red shell), Dynafit TLT 700

60 - Scarpa Laser, Garmont Dynamite, Dynafit TLT 500 (2-buckle + strap), Scarpa F3

50 - Scarpa F1, Garmont Megalite, Dynafit TLT 4 Evo (3-buckle), Dynafit TLT 4 Lite (2-buckle + strap), Dynafit Zzero 2C (?)

40 - Scarpa F1 Race (2-buckle, no strap), Dynafit TLT Race Pro (1-buckle + strap)"

Are these numbers reliable, I find the fit into the binding also introduces a bit of softness.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

DB, Dude we have the lot and are fully aware of the differences. I'm sure many people that bought AT boots last year are damning the BD boots as they bought too early. The Factor is the best ski boot you CAN walk in. The Shaman isn't, to me at least in the same program, albeit, close. The Zeus second as the Method, then the rest.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

DB, Nope, different fit, design, plastic, liners the lot. Am i still being watched? Are you reading this too? Shame on you, you are clearly sick.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

SMALLZOOKEEPER, care to elaborate/correct the list then?

mark handford, thanks. I think my 100+ kg and aggressive skiing style will soon exceed the flex limits...

It's a shame none of these makers conform to a recognised standard terminology; and it is hard to find boots to try out through punishment. Nordica clearly don't enter the mix as far as I can tell which is a shame due to their compatible sizing.

SMALLZOOKEEPER, any thoughts on what, for who?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

DB,

You know it makes sense.

the thread DB quotes doesn't claim to be definitive - it's probably a consensus
also, they take some random Salomon boot as "par" (IIRC) so the numbers probably deviate from the official flex numbers. probably best to read it as a ranking of stiffness (ie you can conclude that a Scarpa Matrix is stiffer than a Scarpa Laser, although the numbers attributed to them should be taken with a pinch of salt)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

DB, Arno, I am guilty of not having looked at the very useful thread in detail yet. I will now. Embarassed

Is the flex index used for standard alpine boots consistent across the different manufacturers then? Boots are an area that I know little about. Stiff, wide Nordicas have done me proud for 8 plus years now. There seems to be a greater discrepancy between the AT makes and models though.

With the advent of more robust bindings and people becoming more confident and competent (generally); this was always going to come to a head. It appears that this season is the time...

A snowHead

eng_ch Nope to much detail required.

DB, I have read that thread, the problem is that there are too many variables to have this work on any level.
No bootfitting shouldn't be disregarded IMO because it's a personal service based on establishing as many constants that is possible to achieve a best result. These kind of charts confuse and mislead dude.

A snowHead

SMALLZOOKEEPER, Any thoughts on Scarpa's Terminator X Pro . . . ?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hello;

very interested in this thread.

Me-

wt; 85-88kg (should be much lighter but laziness beer, pizza, TV, a wife 2 kids , another on the way and the sofa have taken their toll)

ski; quite fast (ie not many people will pass me on piste reasonable off piste) not that fit but can ski fast all day- it's just the walking up that is a pain.

feet; euro 42 (UK Cool

old boots rossignol freeride xx mondo 26.5 very very tight banged toes on even the smallest jump, agony across mid foot ill blown out- then still tight, agony if walking or worse skinning- ok/good skiing- good control (finally thrown in skip in Zermatt this May). Toes not long, Wide across metatarsal heads (at least 98mm), highish arch, narrow heel. Also have Scarpa TX2 tele boots- at mondo 27.5 also a bit painful across midfoot but no toe abuse.

Want; a stiffish AT/freeide boot that fits- good for skiinh on and off piste- a bit of skinning (max 3hrs) but not mutltiday tours. Ideally fit any old binding 9think only dynafit have a boot).

Also will dynafit bindings do me? (their beefiest binding)???

thanks in advance

any ideas?

any idea

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

edsilva, dynafit now do a DIN 12 so unless you are jumping off things a lot or really banging it through moguls it will probably be OK

You'll need to Register first of course.

I think SMALLZOOKEEPER, has a point, the whole things a system. The skis, bindings and the boots, and it all adds up. If the boots are top of the range stiff as hell, but they are poorly fitted ie too big its slack in the system, same with the bindings if the boots are even slightly loose in the binding, its more slack etc. All the slack = loss of precision and drive.

I however do think for us punters its nice to have some reference points to judge what we are buying, not that many "bootfitters" have the same level of integrity as the Zoo keepers. I was sent away with a free adjustment by the Large one a couple of years back when I had gone in thinking I needed new downhill boots. Its a world of difference from the chancers on commission.

Seeing all the boots listed has certainly helped me get my head around it. I did not think for a minute that the ratings were accurate or could be mapped to alpine boots, even the rating of Alpine boots are all over the place between makers. Just as a ranking its helpful.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

No no no it's all nonsense and the only place you can get it sorted on this planet is a zoo in Cham. SZK is the messiah and he's very naughty boy. wink

Seriously, there are many excellent boot fitters (esp in the alps) perhaps we should put together a list.

I've used these people in St Anton and so have friends. They have a very large selection of boots (inc touring boots and Strolz), are very helpful, will turn down work if there isn't enough time for the fitting (e.g. for a non-straight forward fitting it can take days with tweaking of the boots). Best of all they don't pretend it is a black art, aren't at all patronizing and don't spend half their time slagging off the competition in an attempt to make themselves look better / more important. Toofy Grin

http://www.sport-alber.com/en/willkommen.php

I'm not trying to say that i am the only BF to see here, simply that the information is misleading and may make more work than is needed by omitting certain models that may well work. The list provided may well help as a guide but the figures quoted are subject to other factors that i believe have not been factored into this study. I don't have the time to go into this in any depth as we are busy explaining to our customers why this list is wrong face to face. Twisted Evil

Bootfitting is not a straight forward science and you will find many that are excellent across the Alps and further a field.

DB, Wind your neck in dude, i simply wish to point out the list has more work to be done if the figures quoted are to represent the real data.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I tried on some ZZeus, Factors & Radiums last week. My god they're soft, be interesting to see how that translates in the snow Sad

Help!!

AT/Freeride boots' battle

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Equipment Reviews/Questions