 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been doing back squats for a while now using the Smith machine and have gotten to my first goal and would now like to start using free weights.
How much weight should i drop down to make a free weight lift compared to the smith machine? I am guessing the free weights will be harder but is it 10% 20 or ?
I could of course experiment but I dont want to start off too low as i only have limited time in the gym before skiing starts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, a machine?! What would Gil say 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, that i am a southern pansy... but i am... I have gotten to 3 reps of 5 using my body weight. which is up from 60% when is started a few months ago, so he was right that you can progress quickly. I seem to remember him saying that a pro skier should be at 1x body weight and to be ready for eurotest you need to be at 1.5x but cant remember if that was a one off lift or a rep of 5 at that weight.
I think it was 5 but would like to transition to the free weights for the true test.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I think it was 5 but would like to transition to the free weights for the true test. |
Can't imagine him settling for only one lift at that weight! You're very dedicated to do a programme following our day with him. To my shame I've done no weights and only a bit of CV work.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Weight is weight the problem is stability, if you are stable you will be able to lift exactly the same weight as you can with teh Smith machine, most people are not that stable (I'm not I know) an so I'd suggest starting with free weights at 50% of theSmith load and working up quite quickly until you find the point at which you loose stability, from then on it's hard work.
Haven't tried doing squats with the weights (may try later tonight) but on the leg press I can do 1.9X my weight with multiple sets of 30reps no problem at all
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skimottaret, I've spent my entire adult life going to a gym and lifting stuppid weights! As a result I now suffer from back problems. If it's your legs that you want to get into shape for skiing. , I'd advise a leg extensions and thigh bicep curls followed by calf stretching (opposite of a raise), do not do calf raises, it wont help.
Squats are still a very good workout if that's what you want to do but the machines will do less damage to your joints and there is virtually no real chance of you putting your back out before you go skiing!
Then again, if your under 25, stick some more tin on there and go for it!
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Hmm, freeweights helps alot on on stability and core-strength which is very much needed for skiing, if you do the lifts right and don't push yourself over the limit of what you can do you shouldnt be having any problems, when trying lifts for the first time you should start with just the bar, or with squats just do without the bar!
then add a little weight at the time till you get to a comfortable level, when i do different lifts i always start low and work my way up, gets you into the movement and warms up the muscles as well 
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skimottaret, by the way, if you're interested in squats shouldn't this be in the Bend Zee Knees section?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Personally I'd walk away from the Smith Machine and not look back. The same with the seated leg press, and any of the leg machines.
If you want to do squats, start with dumbell squats, held by your side, progress to dumbell squats with them held in front of your shoulders, and then progress to overhead dumbell squats. Most people knacker their knees doing squats because they do them with poor technique and too much weight. After you've done these, and got your technique down pat, move onto barbell squats, start low, and gradually move up.
Good form beats heavy weights every time.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| skimottaret, by the way, if you're interested in squats shouldn't this be in the Bend Zee Knees section? |
Yes it should.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, You realy need to watch your form, drop down to a very light weight so you can practice the squat with correct form.
I would highly recommend that you grab hold of one of the people who works at your gym to show you the correct stance regarding leg separation and also the shape you make with your spine.
It very very easy to pop a disc or tear an abductor if you go to heavy to soon,,,its nothing like a machine, you need a LOT more core stability.
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mark handford, hmmm.... better seek professional help. the words "tear" and "pop" are not what i want to hear...
On a course i was on this summer we were shown correct technique and mainly worked with bars or very low weights but i did have a go at 70kg of free weight and managed to get that up and down a couple times okay so hopefully wont get hurt...
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh dear, my static (deep) squats on the Power Plate are not going to hack it on this thread. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, Its better not to rush things, even though the season is not far away. Squats is undoubtedly the king of exercises but something that is also good for skiing fitness is the very callinetic "bishops seat" as this does a very good job of mimicking the ski stance.
Just squat with your back agains a wall, feet shoulder width apart, aim to get your thigh horizontal to the floor, hold that position for as long as possible,,,make a note of how long you can do this for and then post the time on here!!! Keep doing this exercise every day, it will develop your peak lactic acid tolerance and leg strength.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, Deep squats on a power plate in a static stance is a great one for skiing, you dont need to do the full range of leg motion for this to develop muscle stamina and endurance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mark handford, are we talking about preparing for French 'hole-in-the-ground' loos here?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would have thought that CV work with moderate weight leg exercises that produces a screaming lactic acid response in the 20-30 rep range is much better than the macho heavy weight low reps that do nothing for endurance but build muscle mass.
I hit the gym before the winter climbing and skiing season.
1st 5 weeks of the training are general cv work plus a mix of free weights and machine weights in the 12 rep range, with 3 sets of 3 different exercises per muscle group. This gets me used to being back on the weights and strenghtens muscle,ligaments and gets whats left of my natural testosterone supplies switched back on.
The 2nd 5 weeks is then aimed at building muscle mass and strength. Higher weights with reps in the 5-7 range, still with 3 different exercises per body part.
The next 5 weeks are aimed at strength and endurance. The weight drops slightly but the reps are increased to 12 plus, still 3 exercises per body pary.
The start of week 16 goes back to mid reps of 12 but with a step up in weight which is a natural progression.
Day 1 is pushing exercises - chest and triceps plus shoulders (plus a 30 minute CV work out pre weights).
day 2 is a rest day- but I go climbing at the indoor wall.
Day 3 is pulling exercises - laterals and biceps plus traps (plus a 30 minute CV work out pre weights).
day 4 is a total rest day
Day 5 is legs on their own.
day 6 and 7 are rest days cramming in as much good quality food as possible to help the legs recover.
Nutrients are key, try to get a 50/50 balance of carbs and protein for the 1st 5 weeks and then switch to 70/30 protein/carbs on weeks 6-10. Switch back to 50/50 for the remaining weeks 11-15.
If you get good quality food in you after a work out you will see very quick gains, otherwise you will feel tired and probably catch a cold and miss skiing with the flu!
I stick to the above plan each year, it helps me get ready for the switch from summer climbing and mountaineering to the exta demands of winter climbing and the ski season.
Rest days and food are compulsory 
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mark handford, i do that one as the very last thing in any workout. a friend who skied for France could do 7 minutes easily, i usually can make 1.5 and occassionally 2 minutes if not too tired. Will get a PB up soon, that is a nice leveller exercise and one all should have a go at and post a time
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mark handford, I feel that it's too easy to cheat, doing bishop's chair, by pressing your spine into the wall. In fact, it's a bit like skiing in the back seat which - maybe - some people do to ease the pressure on their unfit thighs. I find deep static squats - with my weight reasonably far forward - much more punishing on the thighs (and, unfortunately, on my somewhat creaky knees.)
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mark handford, The best that I have seen for that exercise was 38 minutes.
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skimottaret, bear in mind that the free-weight bar weighs 20kg whereas the smith machine bar weighs next to zero. Not sure why, but it's a fact... the smith machine can be operated with one finger - try that with an olympic bar.
Without sounding like your mum, take care with free squats. It's a brutal exercise and will find out any weak spots in your technique and/or physique very quickly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bones, gotcha - makes sense.... I am prone to exaggeration Still a difference to be aware of if moving from one to t'other
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think that it's quite possible to do a decent legs workout without using any weights at all. A combination of squats, squat jumps, pistol squats, lunge walking and biodynamic lunges should be enough to do anyone's legs in.
I think that the main problem with the Smith Machine and other leg machines is that it is a restricted plane of movement, so you increase your power, without increasing your control. When you come to free weights, the temptation is to hump as much weight as you have been doing, and that's when injuries happen.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kramer, i have arthritis and havent until recently touched weights and dont like machines and mainly do planks, squats etc as you mention along with stretching. but after a course on fitness training I have been brainwashed into believing that to improve high load speed strength the only game in town is weights and olympic lifting gives the best all round improvements. If i ever go into race training i will need to improve my strength so am starting off very slow now. The trainer Rob and i had was quite compelling in his talk when saying lots of people fail the Eurotest simply through not being strong enough compared to the pace setters.
Hurtle, it is all relative, i am quite weak for my size (or should i say bulk) after years of riding a desk but am starting to slowly get back into shape.
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The technique is the key thing here. Start with relatively low weights with high reps and very good form. However, don't use too light weights as otherwise the form will suffer and you don't feel the movement through as you squat. Use a spotter and possibly also video your squats in the beginning as they have very little in common with what you have been used to with Smith-machine where you can lean on the rack.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| ... but after a course on fitness training I have been brainwashed into believing that to improve high load speed strength the only game in town is weights and olympic lifting gives the best all round improvements. |
yes, BUT... the reason they build muscle is that they are bloody hard and as others have said any imperfection in form, or weakness in supporting soft tissue will wreak havoc with knees and/or back. You don't see too many guys over 30 doing squats for more than a few weeks - it's a brutal exercise, take real care.
Of course a dose of 'riods changes everything
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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red 27, demos, I have only been doing em once or most twice a week as i can really feel it for a day or two. I have a very long term view on this and am hoping to get up to over my body weight comfortably, may take a while.... Im 46 and just about out of testosterone so some steriods may be a good idea for many reasons. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, in your age (I'm 39 and think I know this by now), you should not squat more than once or twice. Really anything more would be too much. We are no kids anymore with unlimited amount of male hormone going through our veins.  Also be very careful with your knees and lower back. Do not use belt, unless you absolutely need. Try to lift so well and clean that you won't need that help. Otherwise, you will never get over the use of a belt and you lose the benefits of free weights for the core.
Another suggestion, do deadlifts to strengthen your back. You should easily be able to lift relatively heavy so it helps you to get into grips with free and heavy weights. I am glad to read that you've been brainwashed to think that olympic lifts are good. They indeed are. But you should also look at other types of free weight movements. Generally at our age multiple-joint exercises are the best as they not only build strength, core and balance, but also are the most effective in lifting our slowly halting metabolism thus help in burning fat.
If you ever get to 3-4 sets of clean deep squats with 8-10 reps at 90-100kg, you will be really good and probably much better than most of the people at your gym. Where ever I have worked out, only the hard core members have squatted, and only semi-pros or real athletes (to whom I kind pretend to belong) go above 100. You need to balance your workouts and legs are such a large muscle group that it takes easily some 4 days to recover fully if you train them well. If you have 3-4 times for exercise/week, and depending on your level of fitness and long-term goals, you could either split the weights in two days (upper and lower) or in three (legs once and upper body split in two). Add moderate cardio too. All that should help. 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 21-11-08 16:53; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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demos, i have been finding once or twice a week is all i can handle as i get quite stiff from the squats. I am taking it very slow and my first goal was to be able to to 3 sets of 5 at body weight, 2nd is to build on that and be do it with free weights. This may take a lot longer than i thought... thanks for the advice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You're well on the way and your approach sounds very well thought through. Depending on whether you are looking for a one rep max, low-rep sets (3-6) or relatively high-rep sets (8-10) as the final goal, your training methods should vary. It seems to me that you really are more after strength than stamina or muscle growth - thus you should, after optimising your squat technique, attack this differently than those who want to squat 10 reps. And the more you are after strength, the less frequently you can really train in your age. You will find a lot of different resources to help you realise the target.
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Don't use a belt, and don't use gloves. If you can't lift it unaided, then you shouldn't be lifting it.
5 Bodyweight squats isn't too difficult. 1.5 times bodyweight is a different story.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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have managed 60kg 3 sets of 8 and it hasnt been too bad, will start to up it next week. Gotta say though squats once a week is about all i can handle on the soreness front though
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skimottaret, Once a week is plenty - intensity delivers results, not frequency. Remember the point of weights is to over-stress the muscle so that it breaks down and rebuilds stronger - recovery is vital and over-training (i.e. not leaving enough recovery time) soooo easy to do. Remember the pros are all on gear of one sort or another so the normal rules don't apply.
If I'm teaching granny or preaching to the choir please ignore...
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| skimottaret wrote: |
rob@rar, that i am a southern pansy... but i am... I have gotten to 3 reps of 5 using my body weight. which is up from 60% when is started a few months ago, so he was right that you can progress quickly. I seem to remember him saying that a pro skier should be at 1x body weight and to be ready for eurotest you need to be at 1.5x but cant remember if that was a one off lift or a rep of 5 at that weight.
I think it was 5 but would like to transition to the free weights for the true test. |
Question to the floor: What is the Eurotest???
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knees killing me from skiing and squats have now been resigned to summer training...
i am more and more leaning towards replacing strength training with more agility and speed work as the skiing is suffering from being a fat old slow guy, as opposed to a fat old weak guy. I continue to do mainly stretching and flexibility exercises and this is definately paying off...
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