 Poster: A snowHead
|
| johnnyh wrote: |
| Quote: |
feet locked together inhibits getting your skis onto a decent edge
|
I agree - except if you look at the video their feet aren't locked/nailed/glued together. They are actually separate, but the angle of the slope and the position of the camera/viewer it appears that the feet are closer together than they really are. |
Look how close their knees are in the second half of every turn they do. In the 2nd video (evasion turns) their boots are about two inches apart, if that, in the first few turns the skier does.
You're right to say that it is not a pure carved turn. Not every turn has to be carved, as you know very few turns are purely carved. But I don't see any evidence of working towards a carved turn. I'm being a bit harsh here because the big change in ski design hadn't happened, but as Schuss in Boots said earlier some instructors are still teaching like that even though we've had a decade of evolving technique to take advantage of new ski designs.
It's not just their stance that I have a problem with. Thy are skiing with so much pointless up and down movements they are like jack-in-the-boxes. It must be exhausting!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I'm not suggesting that the style in the video is the optimum (and I generally ski with quite a wide stance, having had a lot of quite recent lessons despite learning initially in the '80s and have had to consciously narrow my stance, and weight skis evenly, to ski powder a bit better). And I think the "mincing" style of feet glued together, which you see still, looks daft - especially when people think they look really cool. I would give anything (well no, actually I wouldn't, but you know what I mean) to be able to tackle a steep and deep slope like Phil Smith (or no doubt like many of our expert Snowheads posters). But, failing that, doing like the guys in the video would be good enough for me. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| pam w wrote: |
| But, failing that, doing like the guys in the video would be good enough for me. |
My main problem with their skiing is that it is a "dead end". If it was simply a staging post on the way to something better then it would be fine - some people would stop at the staging post and maybe make relatively little progress beyond it. Others would use it as a foundation for further improvement. But in my experience you need to do a lot of "unlearning" when you develop some of those habits if you want to ski efficiently, all over the mountain taking advantage of all that the current kit has to offer. One of the things which is important to BASI's Central Theme (the progression from complete beginner to confident parallel skier), and I guess other national systems as well, is that nothing is 'thrown away'. You consolidate and build your skills, which provide a foundation for your next level of skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Lizzard, ha ha, so very true.....
What you can take from this that you may want to embrace, is a more economical style as todays skis will be a big help in this. Instructors may have a vested interest in telling you are doing it 'wrong' but if you can get close to navigating that terrian like those skiers do..you patently aren't..just differently.
There is no need to step in and out of the turn anymore and if you want to keep both feet weighted more centrally you'll have to adjust the angles of the body to you allow to do it. In some situations many instructors will encourage the stem ..even do it themselves, and unweighting, either up or down will have its uses as well..
Aethestically, that video isn't that pleasing.... , IMV.. but then neither is lot of new skool A-framing....and crouch-turns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| JT wrote: |
| In some situations many instructors will encourage the stem ..even do it themselves, and unweighting, either up or down will have its uses as well.. |
Agreed. I stem when I need to, and bounce up and down when I need to. But I do other things as well. I'd like to think that even though I'm not as good as the guys in those videos that I use a wider range of ski technique in my everyday skiing than those guys where demonstrating in the videos (which seemed to be only variations of twisting their skis through the turn in every more refined ways). They had a very small tool box of skills as it were. I think we should teach skiers to have bigger toolbox as soon as they are able to manage it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rob@rar,
Not pointless movements at the time tho'... and probably not if you were on those skis today, so you can't really knock it in that respect. You can say a lot of that isn't required now, of course, but alos, you'd want some of those jumps today to be able to ski that stuff....
The main thing, I see, is economy of movement bewteen the 2 styles ..and that isn't a bad thing
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JT wrote: |
| Not pointless movements at the time tho'... and probably not if you were on those skis today, so you can't really knock it in that respect. |
Agreed, again. If the only time we saw skiing like that was in old videos posted by Yoda I'd not worry about it. Unfortunately I see ski instructors teaching like that all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar,
I am no fan of the back bottom-wiggling wedel either as I've seen to many posey skiers doing that, crap out when the terrain gets more demanding... I remember seeing a DR going head first down Toviere doing that..and he then stuck on the less mogulled runs forever after that. That skiing went nowhere, but everyone loved the style at the time..apparently.
I think you are trying to compare then and now unfairly... they pretty well had to swish them round then i that stuff ....and that is the only place you see them ski. The drills are there to empahise but I don't recall many doing such americanised hash turns in the early eighties for example. I think they are models from a WM film of that era.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| (which seemed to be only variations of twisting their skis through the turn in every more refined ways). |
If the skis wouldn't do it for you (and they didn't, well nothing like a modern ski anyway) you had to do it for them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| I'm not suggesting that the style in the video is the optimum (and I generally ski with quite a wide stance, having had a lot of quite recent lessons despite learning initially in the '80s and have had to consciously narrow my stance, and weight skis evenly, to ski powder a bit better). |
rob@rar makes a really good point, what you're seeing is incredibly stylised, in specific ways that may have been normative but weren't universal, I reckon.
If you learned in the mid-late 80s, you were quite possibly on better skis than those of the vid.
| Quote: |
And I think the "mincing" style of feet glued together, which you see still, looks daft - especially when people think they look really cool. |
Part of that is acculturation, I think. The other part, well... See if you can spot any uphill motion or the least vestige of a step in video 2. (Check above the hips also).
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 7-11-08 15:09; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
If you were fortunate enough to ski with Ali Ross in those days you wouldn't ski like that even on those skis...... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JT wrote: |
| I think you are trying to compare then and now unfairly... they pretty well had to swish them round then i that stuff .... |
| brian wrote: |
| If the skis wouldn't do it for you (and they didn't, well nothing like a modern ski anyway) you had to do it for them. |
Guilty as charged. Yes, I'm judging those videos but today's standards although as Yoda says, not everyone skied like that: the great Ali Ross being one of the pioneers of modern technique. Back then I did my best to ski just like that so I've had to work hard to unlearn a lot of those things. Unfortunately there are still too many instructors who are teaching like they are still in the 1980s, considerably short-changing their clients who are new to skiing, IMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Just to clarify, I'd put that style around late 70's... and American.
And I agree Ali Ross never advocated anything like that from '84 that I saw.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| JT wrote: |
| rob@rar, Really, you see people teaching like that....??? |
Yes. I spend a bit more time looking at what ski instructors do these days and I see it all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| JT wrote: |
| Just to clarify, I'd put that style around late 70's... and American. |
I think those videos are from 1985, and definitely French
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
I haven't watched the video but even Ali Ross couldn't have made an old straight ski carve all the way round a short radius turn. Ye cannae change the laws of physics, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
rob@rar,
I'm not immune to watching ski instructors and although I free skied with a Swiss-girl who would do that.. I never saw her teach it, AFAIK.
I'll keep even more of a look out
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| brian wrote: |
| Ye cannae change the laws of physics, etc. |
| Albert Einstein wrote: |
| O RLY? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
comprex, oh alright then, ye cannae change the clichés of physics then, happy ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
brian, I happy long time. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian, I find it best to treat them as guidelines
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I knew I'd posted this in the wrong thread:-
| Quote: |
help a lot to make the edge changes simultaneous
|
hmm, surely we should be taking special relativity* into account in any discussion of simultaneity?
*see "The Relativistic Skier", published by Vader & Vader, 2286
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
How close together are this guy's feet ? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Not that close in my opinon. If they were any further apart he would be doing the splits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Yoda, many thanks for posting those, I really enjoyed watching them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
rob@rar, a pleasure. Not least because it gives our young Padawans like VolklAttivaS5 a chance to peer into the mists of time....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Yoda,
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Yoda, indeed. Right this is a long un!
Like I said earlier on though, there were remnants, and quite a few, of the "old technique" clearly visible in the off piste guide that took us off that morning in Val D'Isere. He was an instructor as well by all accounts and anyway, because some of the group hadn't been off piste before, or very much anyway, he was giving them a bit of on the spot instruction here and there, well quite a lot actually, I just thought he was going to guide us TBH having not seen the other people ski before.
The snow being spring snow was a bit of everything that morning, hard cruddy bits, some heavy soft snow and that sort of thing. Funnily enough (having done a Snoworks Off Piste course the week before with Emma CA which was fab, enlightening, scary and fun all at the same time plus a great deal of hard work) I was was skiing down everywhere fine, getting down in control and putting into practice the things I'd learnt the week before i.e I was in the "goalie" position so to speak so I was well balanced, "pushing" the hard cruddy snow and soft heavy snow away like I was shown. It worked a treat. The instructor though kept on sticking his oar in saying to me to "stop crouching" and to "stand up" and kept on saying "up" to me. Anyway, I thought, well I don't want to be rude and I'll give the bloke the benefit of the doubt because I'm willing to listen to other ways of doing things and that, and in the sort of snow we were in it just didn't work (for me anyway) and I crashed loads trying to do what he was saying! So wish I hadn't bothered.
It got a bit annoying after a while him going on, especially as I was getting down the slopes regardless of conditions just fine (like I say it was a right medley of snow types on a crisp cold morning which was later sunny) and then when he said I was skiing with my legs too far apart (they were about hip width apart so not loads) I'd had enough and said "Look thanks for your advice but this works for me and besides this is how I was taught on a course last week so I'll stick with this ta" or words to that effect and he said "You're joking!"  and also that not skiing with your legs together didn't look very "nice". 
We only ended up with him because it was who the SCGB sorted out to take us off piste. I'll never do that again. It was expensive as well. You live and learn though.
So rob@rar, you are so right about seeing ski instructors still trying to teach this "look nice" technique, it happens far more than what people realise, and you are right, it may be alright for some things (my observations tell me that there is a lot of twisty/skiddy going on in those vids) but it is a small toolbox as you say and I very much doubt it will work everywhere in all conditions all of the time.
Oh, also, to your last 11 posts, I say yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and <shrieks> yes!! I agree with everything you have said. Not only does BASI Central Theme work wherever you might be on the mountain and you can select the "tool" you want for ice, steep bits, moguls, thick heavy snow, powder and any other combination of things you might encounter, but physiologically it makes sense not putting your body into funny shapes and positions which are not necessary half the time IMO.
Oh, and another thing, I reckon the geezers in those videos look like they are trying to ski "pretty" and they look like they are trying to hold a squash ball between their bum cheeks whilst doing so IMV. Who cares if it looks pretty or not, it's simple effective movements surely which is best. Besides I've seen a few BASI instructors DVDs (MJ, PS etc) and they look alright to me . I expect you rob@rar have seen Ultimate Terrain of Phil's which certainly does the job of building enthusiasm for a forthcoming trip  but Mark's is a cracker as well, loads of good information in there as well as watching him do some drills and other stuff. I enjoyed watching both and they are good ones to get out and watch before going skiing again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
VolklAttivaS5, Ye gods girl, you sure can type!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
red 27, well I did warn people upfront that it was a long un!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yoda, good fun, where did you get those from ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
red 27, I have that effect 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
