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Tranceivers/ shovels/ proves - an interesting quote

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Just found the below quote in a textbook I was reading and thought it might provoke some interesting debate:

The Mountaineering Handbook, Craig Connally wrote:
Skiers are well aware that they venture into avalanche terrain; many carry tranceiver beacons to help locate buried victims (actually, these should be called "corpse locators"), avalanche probes to find-tune searches, and shovels to dig out victims and make pits for evaluating the snow pack. Climbers may carry shovels at best. This means that climbers are forced to focus on avoiding avalanches rather than worrying about what to do after being caught in one. Pity that skiers often lose this perspective, as 50 percent of avalanche fatalities occur from trauma during the side.


I thought it was an interesting point of view. Looking at statistics, most of those caught in avalanches seem to be skiers - climbers make up a much smaller amount of the total number of avalanche deaths. Of course some of that is to be expected - as another source put it the best skiing tends to be on the sort of slopes that may be prone to avalanches, the sort of slopes an experienced climber would actively seek to avoid. But putting that aside, does anyone think that the author has a point in that being properly equipped with tranceivers, proves and shovels is of little value, and could potentially be more dangerous in that they may make people slightly more careless about what they choose to ski? As, as a personal addition, that after an avalanche with close friends buried and people in a state of panic and disorganisation, conducting a search in potentially difficult terrain under difficult situations could be difficult enough that there isn't much chance of pulling someone out alive?

Does anyone have any statistics on the effectiveness of tranceivers out of curiosity?

I'd like to add that I have no experience whatsoever in skiing off-piste (although I'd like to at some point), but I found that to be an interesting point of view/difference between mountaineering and snowsports, especially as so many snowsports enthusiasts seem to place so much importance on being properly equipped with tranceiver/shovel/probe.

Thoughts? Smile
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http://www.avalanche.ca/CAC_Knowledge_Incident

Some intersting information on this site.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Like the helmet argument - anyone who thinks a transceiver is a sure bet is a fool.
Bit of a sweeping generalisation to say that skiers lose the perspective that avys are to be avoided.

Everyone knows that avalanche cords are the best protection however as transceivers are just an expensive con wink
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mark_s, so what's the ratio of skiers to winter mountain climbers? I imagine that one hell of a lot more people are out and about on skis than on foot, which might serve to explain the numbers?
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Steilhang, I agree with that, and as I said skiers hunt out the sort of terrain that climbers might be a bit wary about, as good off-piste is often apparently found on those slopes which are of a grade more prone to avalanching (~30-45º). It's not the statistics which most interest me, but whether people think that skiers place too much emphasis on the 'holy trinity', or that climbers should be more prepared on the off-chance they're caught in a slide.

Also I just thought the quote was an interesting and well-worded point of view, regardless of opinion Smile
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Hold on, but dont climbers tend to hang about on rocks (or ice) whilst skiers/boarders do their stuff on snow ?

What are the statistics for skiers getting killed falling down cliffs or getting squashed by rock falls ?
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Surely the logic that:

Skiers using trancievers are more worried about what happens after an avalanche than avoiding them


Is the same as saying:

People who have first-aid kits in the back of their car are more worried about what happens after a car crash than avoiding them



Trancievers are never seen as a precautionary method to avalanches... that's just silly. They are there because in the event of an avalanche they can help locate the skier.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
mark_s, the "point" is the reduction in time it takes to locate the victims. There are loads of stats on your chance of kicking it in proportion to how long you've been under, basically if you're down for more than 15 minutes a beeper definitely becomes a "corpse locator". In fact I normally refer to a probe as a corpse locator, because if you really need to be getting one out to have a poke around you're looking for a stiff.

I wear an avalanche transceiver in case I ever need to search for a friend, colleague or anyone else who has been unfortunate to be caught in one. I prefer the avoidance method to protect me and the people I'm skiing with, but the mountains can be cruel and we all have stories of even the most experienced guides being caught in an "unexpected" slide.

Practice is the key, the people that I ski with 90% of the time are some of the quickest on the mountain with a beeper. We train from time-to-time just to ensure that if we need to use them we're digging people out as quickly as possible - for which a directional device is mighty handy!

Winter climbers are a different story. The pressure that they excerpt on the slope is very different to a skier / boarder and their goals / routes normally can't be compared...
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mark_s wrote:
The Mountaineering Handbook, Craig Connally wrote:
50 percent of avalanche fatalities occur from trauma during the side.

That statistic doesn't seem to be borne out by a review of the research.

I must admit that I find the implied causality rather tenuous:

The Mountaineering Handbook, Craig Connally wrote:
Skiers are well aware that they venture into avalanche terrain; many carry tranceiver beacons to help locate buried victims (actually, these should be called "corpse locators"), avalanche probes to find-tune searches, and shovels to dig out victims and make pits for evaluating the snow pack. Climbers may carry shovels at best. This means that climbers are forced to focus on avoiding avalanches rather than worrying about what to do after being caught in one.

The argument here is either that:
Quote:
Both climbers are skiers go into avalanche terrain. Skiers are more reckless than climbers because they carry more safety equipment.

or
Quote:
Skiers carry safety equipment because they know they are going to go into avalanche terrain. Climbers are generally unwilling to carry the necessary safety equipment and so generally avoid avalanche terrain.

Puzzled
Let's rewrite that quote:
PhillipStanton wrote:
Climbers are well aware that they enter situations where a fall could kill them; many carry ropes and climbing protection such as ice screws, chocs and cams. Skiers may carry a short rope, single ice screw and a couple of cams at best. This means that skiers are forced to focus on not climbing up things where a fall might kill them. This clearly demonstrates that climbers are more reckless than skiers.

The whole argument ignores parlor's point that the fundamental nature of the two activities is different:
parlor wrote:
Winter climbers are a different story. The pressure that they excerpt on the slope is very different to a skier / boarder and their goals / routes normally can't be compared...

Climbing and skiing are fundamentally different in the interaction between the person and the snowpack. Skiing is a dynamic sport that loads the snowpack much more heavily than climbing. Given that avalanches are caused by failure in the structural integrity of the snowpack then loading is likely to be the dominant causal factor.

Whilst it's hard to deny that carrying safety kit may make some people more reckless than others, my experience is that it's the people who ski without any safety kit or snowpack awareness training that are the reckless ones.

In Avoriaz there is a southerly facing slope that, in spring, you can stand and watch the avalanches come down. Does that stop skiers skiing it and stopping for a picnic below the rocks? Strangely, you hardly ever see anyone skiing that slope that carries safety kit.

(If anyone's interested, the slope is bit just to the left of the large reservoir as you head up to the Fornet bowl.)
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parlor, PhillipStanton, thank you for the well-explained replies Smile

parlor wrote:
the "point" is the reduction in time it takes to locate the victims. There are loads of stats on your chance of kicking it in proportion to how long you've been under, basically if you're down for more than 15 minutes a beeper definitely becomes a "corpse locator"...practice is the key, the people that I ski with 90% of the time are some of the quickest on the mountain with a beeper


I'm firmly sitting on the fence/playing devil's advocate here (and having no experience of my own to add that's all I can do Laughing), but what are the chances of finding someone within 15 minutes armed with the correct equipment? Practicing on easy ground is one thing, but when you're stuck on the side of a difficult slope, possibly below the victim, etc etc etc (in short a realistic scenario), what are your chances then?
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mark_s, on a steep slope, below the probable place of the victim, heavy snow deris?

The chances are not good.

BUT although the chances may not be good they are a whole lot BETTER if everyone has a tranciver, probe and shovel. Surely that is the point?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The difference between climbers and skiers is an interesting one...

Skiing on a 40 degree slope in fresh snow is the most fun type of skiing you get - Wide powder bowls and couloirs are the kind of slopes that good freeskiers will actively seek out.These are also however the most avalanche prone types of terrain.

Climbers & Mountaineers, on the other hand, will always look for the safest line of ascent or descent that takes them to the summit or start of the ice climbing route etc. Where possible they would choose ridge lines, buttresses etc. For climbers the decision making process is alot easier (simply stay away from the avalanche prone slopes / terrain!)

I think the difference is that for off piste skiers the line between potentially fun skiing and a dangerous slope is same what more blurred. Picking a fun powder slope that isn't going to slide can be a difficult thing to do. Alot of people take risks and usually they get away with it... Which can build up a false sense of security or confidence amongst some skiers ?

Quote:

Does anyone have any statistics on the effectiveness of tranceivers out of curiosity?


Basically if your buried in a slide then your fully dependent on self rescue by someone in your group.

Assuming your wearing a beacon then there is approx 30% chance of being rescued alive within the critical 15 minute window - assuming your companions know how to use the gear. Without any beacons this drops to close to 0%.

I am actually thinking the ABS system *might* be the most effective. A simple back pack that inflates when you pull a rip cord - hopefully keeping you on the surface. However its expensive, and you there are issues traveling with it on aircraft.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 6-11-08 10:26; edited 1 time in total
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mark_s, rungsp answers the question really.

FWIW we practice in nasty terrain precisely for this point. One of the reason for routine training is so that lots of this becomes second nature when the reindeer raisins hit the fan. We time each other and make it competitive.

We always try to minimize the risk in any situation. For instance ANY slope that has ANY risk, however low, gets skied one-at-a-time with each skier being in a safety spot before the next commences. The chances are that the slope would go when person the first person skis it rather than person 4 or 5, I try to keep groups to this size. So hopefully the search party would still be above the skier, most of the time.

I also pray that if I was in your nasty scenario above I would be overcome by 'supernatural' powers like you hear of when mums lift up burning cars to save their babies.

In fact twice I have experienced the ability of fear and adrenalin kicking in and finding hidden strengths:

I once ran up a steep red, covering around 150m of vertical to help my brother-in-law, covered the ground in no time at all without stopping. I got to the top to find he was fine but the person who he skied into had severe concussion. I wanted to kill him at this point as my lungs were on fire. Later wanted to kill my sister who made me do it.

Not as far but in waste deep powder running to free Mrs P who had face planted and was about to be choked. Skis off and steam trained straight up. It hurt afterwards, but I had no physical pain until I knew she was OK. Now she always skis before I do in powder.

I think this is deeply seated human nature, so I want every chance of pulling you, my brother-in-law or my wife out avalanche debris ASAFP. And the correct gear helps.

snowHead
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Just for the record I would not bother rescuing Haggis_Trap, who should actually change his name to Poacher_Trap. Wink

However, his point about the ABS is very good. I keep threatening and one of these days I will be getting an ABS or a Pulse.
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 brian
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
I am actually thinking the ABS system *might* be the most effective. A simple back pack that inflates when you pull a rip cord - hopefully keeping you on the surface. However its expensive, and you there are issues traveling with it on aircraft.


Me 3. I'm actually feeling I should've made that this year's big purchase instead of another pair of tempting skis. Confused Especially since I could leave it in CH avoiding the plane thing.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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The pulse looks very interesting - thanks for the link, its a new one for me.
I like the way it inflates round and over your head.
Almost like a big life jacket.

Doug.

p.s Make mental note - always send Parlor in first... wink


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 6-11-08 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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 brian
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btw, the stats on the ABS (from the Swiss SLF) are pretty convincing:


http://www.abs-lawinenairbag.de/_doc.php?lang=uk&dwid=30
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brian, The stats look pretty good. The main issue is the cost. One of the reasons why I bought an avalung this year rather than an ABS bag. I'm also waiting for them to put it in a rucksack that is less rubbish.

The other concern I have is that I tend to believe that owning safety equipment enables risk taking. I'd have to think pretty carefully before buying something like that how my own behaviour would be affected by knowing that I'd stacked the avalanche dice much more heavily in my favour.
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Haggis_Trap, Pulse got a bit of a hard time on TGR because when inflated it means you can't move your head - in case you were still going to avoid a cliff or something. I've tried both on and the Pulse was much more comfortable but I might want a bigger pack, which they have promised for this year... I'll let you know.

brian, I'm convinced already. It's just the hammering that the wallet gets. Especially when there are new skis to be had. Wink The last time I had a serious talk about one with Mrs P (the wallet holder) she thought it was a good idea, shame the wallet doesn't feel it.

rungsp, has an ABS.
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 brian
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parlor, similar story with mrs b. I get the impression it would be the easiest £500+ equipment sell I'll ever have.

How much do the snowpulse bags go for over with you ?
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 brian
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gorilla, interesting. People say the same thing about txcvr/shovel/probe and risk taking. It hasn't affected my attitude at all but then I think my attitude is pretty much that it is just a corpse location thing and I am absolutely poo-poo scared of avalanches. Confused
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PhillipStanton wrote:


Whilst it's hard to deny that carrying safety kit may make some people more reckless than others, my experience is that it's the people who ski without any safety kit or snowpack awareness training that are the reckless ones.



I totally agree, snowpack and avalanche awareness is a definate must for all those who venture in to the winter playgound, regardless of destination.
Some weeks ago I offered Snowheads the chance for a very cheap winter skills course in Scotland, this could have been a week or a long weekend. The general outcome was that if there was no skiing what was the point! Personally I found this to be a very short term point of view, as if you want to venture off the marked pistes or mountain tracks then snowpack/avalanche awareness is top of the list.


For those that are interested I would highly recommend the 2 following books, they have been produced from all the latest research and are the current thinking, Both books are by Robert Bolognesi:

Cicerone publications: Avalanche! - A superb book, easy to read and understand, it also includes the NIVOTEST observation card, this card has been produced from the most up to date data and understanding and is easy to use and understand, you simply dial in the answers to a range of questions, it then gives you the verdict on the avalanche hazard based on your answers.

Cicerone publications: Snow - a more in depth look at snow pack, good if you want to know more in depth information.

In winter I have used the NIVOTEST as have many other instructor and guide friends of mine its another great tool from the winter skills tool box, couple the NIVOTEST with your snowpack and weather knowledge and you have an even better idea of the probability of avalanche hazard.
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gorilla wrote:
brian, The stats look pretty good. The main issue is the cost. One of the reasons why I bought an avalung this year rather than an ABS bag. I'm also waiting for them to put it in a rucksack that is less rubbish.


I've got an abs pack. It's 50 litre for multi-day trips but bought a much better smaller ruck sack (28-30 litre) that is interchangable for shorter trips. Testing it in a crowded shop was a laugh.

Main rucksack ....
http://www.abs-airbag.com/v50.php?chid=1272&lang=uk&sid=eba65165edf555e53b5b036ac2914d94&m=3

Millet 28L Daypack ......
http://www.milletusa.com/catalogue/abs-protool-28-p-512.html?temp=1&typo_prod=1:us&cPath=61_75_76


People risk their lives looking for people they hope are alive in avalanches. Even if a transmitter doesn't help to save you please wear one so that -

a) The people trying to save you find your body sooner and reduce the time / risk of the search.
b) Your family gets your body back earlier (some corpses without transmitters are not found until the spring thaw).


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Thu 6-11-08 11:46; edited 1 time in total
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Once skied with a Swiss Instructor who didn't carry a bleep. Her take was that she knew the mountain very well, knew the history of the slides and just didn't go there at dangerous times. Interesting take and probably beyond most of us to even know.
I wonder how many of us would be confident that they would pass an acid test...god forbid..!!!

mark handford,
I think people were willing to commit to an idea of going to Scotland, but not a date, AFAIK
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Here's a pic of the abs rucksack with the 28litre pack, not too bulky but you feel the extra weight (ca 3-4 kg) on a tour.

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JT wrote:
Once skied with a Swiss Instructor who didn't carry a bleep. Her take was that she knew the mountain very well, knew the history of the slides and just didn't go there at dangerous times. Interesting take and probably beyond most of us to even know.


Whatever...
For sure - you can stay on piste after after every fresh snow fall.
But thats not gonna be much fun.

If you wanna ski the good stuff then you need to be able to evaluate the risks. Then weigh them up against your own acceptable risk threshold.
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Haggis_Trap, Maybe I wasn't clear, she was on the Steinberg glacier so nowhere near a piste.
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mark handford, I hore you didn't read that into my reply.

I would love to come up, but only have four weeks of holiday a year. Last year three of those were alpine ski trips and one was a summer trip to Scotland with the family.

In all honesty, to do a Scottish week would mean losing a week in the Alps so while I'm a bit loath to do that I haven't totally written it off.
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Mosha Marc, It was a generalisation and not directed at anyone in particular Little Angel The general thread did sway towards the skiing side of things and less about mountain skills.

I will be putting a post up regarding a long weekend course if thats more viable to people, probable dates will be 21-22 Feb and 7-8 March.
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mark handford, just ordered the books, ta
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I'm already sold on the idea of ABS - just it isn't a practical reality until they sort out an agreement with relevant airlines as my previous attempt to engage BA customer services on the question met with abject failure. It would be in ABS's interests to get a blanket clearance as sales would surely go up dramtically among non alpine dwellers.
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mark handford, were I not in France I'd be really interested in that.

While looking for Bruce Trempers views on the matter in the OP's quote I ran across this:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&id=TcLzUO3Is4MC&dq=bruce+tremper&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Di4-SVeODo&sig=bfL5i6ciLupm4fQHoxSQFr5Ae_0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA89,M1

which is not bad for free. Trempers views are here: http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Nivotest

DB, that looks a bunch better than the ones I've seen in Snow and Rock.
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gorilla, I am familiar with Bruce Tempers book, its on my shelf. It was interesting to see see his comments on the NIVO system.
The NIVO system also had a massive amount of imput from another Guru who is noted as being one of the leading most knowledgeable people around, Blyth Wright. This guys knowledge is unsurpassed, I have met him a few times on the hill and also at his office at Glenmore Lodge where is he the head of SAIS, the Scottish Avalanche Information Service.
He also wrote "Chance in a million" which is well worth reading.
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Why are the airbags so expensive? Just pinch one of the lifebelts from the airplane. Smile
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fatbob, totally agreed
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Just to add my 2p's worth, FWIW I agree completely with most of what#s been written by mark handford, Haggis_Trap, parlor, andPhillipStanton,.

I've written before that as a climber coming into snowsports I'm quite shocked at the lack of knowledge most people have of the high alpine environment, not just with respect to avalanche but also the weather and terrain. This may be skewed by the general competence of the people involved for instance until I joined this site everyone I knew in wintersports were the sort of people who do one week a year and stick to the piste whereas on here more people are much more aware of the dangers.

There is a big difference in the approach to the mountains taken by skiers and climbers, this has been touched on above and it is probably caused by difference in what both groups are looking for. It's worth pointing out that although a climber will probably be looking for a rock or ice slope a long part of the approach will be conducted over ground where there is a risk of avalanche both on the ground itself and from above, contrary to some beliefs there is plenty of snow about and plenty of slides in summer (climbers are more active above the top heights of many resorts) however, they have different tools at their disposal to minimise risks which may not be available or may be completely useless to skiers. Firstly they aim to cross this ground when it is still fully frozen, we're talking about leaving huts at 4-5 in the morning, climbers are unlikely to be about when there's fresh powder: it makes the approach harder, it's hard and dangerous to climb and it can fall down whereas skiers are looking for this. A skier will cover a great deal more ground than a climber which is why generally avvy pits aren't much good, however, a climber may spend a decent length of time on one slope so they can tell then useful info. Climber's will carry less kit in general this makes them able to move quicker so combined with the early start can get them across risky ground before it becomes more dangerous. Climber's may also be roped together meaning that if one gets caught then that's the lot of them and lets be honest, if a whole group gets buried then they're screwed because there's no way anyone else is getting to them quick enough. If one doesn't then they can follow the rope.
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How about skiers versus snowmobilers we have more of those getting caught and doing stupid things over here than skiers and fewer have the gear for rescue.
Agree with Parlor training in using the equipment is the key there are also choices to be made in the rescue who's the lookout, who's digging and who's assisting with the dig so it is done with a minimum of wasted time and effort. Some of these choices need to be done beforehand as time is so critical in digging out live victims.
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Swirly, Hmm some interesting thoughts there.
As a mountaineer I can only speak for those that I take out in the mountains in winter and for those who I climb with.
Climbers never rope up to cross suspect avalanche slopes, but will obviously rope up for a multi-pitch climb.
Climbers carry more weight in gear than the average off-piste skier and probably the same weight in gear ( although i hope not) as someone on a hut to hut ski tour.

I do think that some kind of hasty pit to look at the snow pack is good for those skiing off piste on slopes that are between 30-48 degrees, especially if there are no other indications on the slope that give tell tale signs that its is not safe to ski down ie small snowballs,cornices, suncups, slumps, sloughs and other more obvious avalanche debris

If in your hasty pit you find that there is an unconsolodated top layer of 5 inches of snow that shears easily you may make a judgement call based on how fast and stable you can ski the slope if a 100msq section decides to slide, however if it was just a couple of inches you may just go ahead and go for it; if however your hasty pit revealed more than 5 inches of slab or powder you may well decide to go elsewhere and vary your descent route.
I think to not inspect a slope that is at the correct angle and aspect regarding current and past weather and snowfall, for an avalanche, is asking for trouble regardless of being a skier or mountaineer. It only takes a few minutes and it may save your life.
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Quote:

Climbers never rope up to cross suspect avalanche slopes, but will obviously rope up for a multi-pitch climb.


I should have made this clearer, what I was thinking of was in the case of crossing a wet glacier under a suspect slope an unlikely situation and one you'd try and avoid if possible.

Quote:

Climbers carry more weight in gear than the average off-piste skier...


Yes but they (I) will try and cut down as much as possible I wouldn't carry a transceiver when climbing yet always wear one when boarding. I haven't carried a shovel in summer in the Alps and would only carry one per 3 people for UK winter but if going off piste would expect everyone to have one. I can't comment on winter alpinism as I haven't done any and can't see me doing it for a while.

I asked about pits on here last season partly as I'd seen a different way of doing them to they way I was taught and wanted to know about it, the discussion (including a spin-off thread) worked it's way onto the validity of the pits results, the general consensus including what a couple of guides have said to me was that they might tell you something important e.g. depth hoar but to be wary as you could easily miss something. I'll confess I've never dug one for off piste tending to make judgements based on what I could see from the surface/reports and speaking to the local ski patrol. Maybe I should reconsider this.
snow conditions
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Swirly, TBH the only thing that you want to know from any kind of hasty pit is where the shear layer is and how deep it is as well as how good is the bond between layers.

I know some people will wax lyrical about being able to identify mulitple layers of snow, freeze-thaw, ice, grauple etc in the snow pack, thats great and its something I can do as well, but at the end of the day all I want to know how deep the most unstable layer is.

The only difficulty is determining how hard you pull to test the shear layer and this is something that you need to be shown so you can get a feel for it.

Try some hasty pits the next time your out, you dont need to go for the full 1m test just dig one about 18" wide and keep digging down until you come to a very solid layer or the ground. It usually only takes 5 minutes at the most to determine what the slope is like.

Typically over a winter seasons work I will have dug around 30+ hasty pits and around 15 Rutchblock test and I can honestly say that a small pit is just as good once you have compared it to a full test block and you get the feel for how hard to pull etc. Smile
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