 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
Help please ... I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4 and am driving from the Algarve to Valloire for Christmas. What are the rules on snow chains or winter tyres? Will I need either? Or not necessary with the 4x4? Many thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You will need decent tyres, but on a 4x4 you should already have them. (A hundred people will rock up in a minute and tell you that regular 4x4 mud 'n' snow tyres are no use, but having driven on them in an accident-free fashion for 12 seasons I can tell you that this is rubbish.) In theory you should carry chains, but in practice police stopping people and making them chain up will wave you past if you're driving a 4x4.
Watch it on those big fat tyres in slushy snow though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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puzzikatt, search the forum for snow tyres - you'll find a zillion recommendations.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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By the book the Police can halt your progress if the roads are snow covered and you don't have Chains. With a 4x4 you should fit them to all 4 wheels, to avoid transmission damage. Jeeps tend to come with fat tyres with a road bias, especially as you live in Portugal. M+S or better still Winter Tyres, both with plenty of tread is a minimum really.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The real difference between M&S tyres and winter tyres becomes evident while braking on ice. A lighter car (e.g. fiat panda with skinny wheels) will perform much better than a big heavy jeep with fat tyres in this instance. Be careful when descending alpine roads in icy conditions, leave ample space for braking in front of you. You get what you pay for and cheap tyres (M&S or winter) often perform very badly in winter conditions (as tested by motoring organizations). Might be worth checking that your M&S tyres aren't cheap and have decent tread depth (4mm+) on them. Bringing a tyre change slightly forward could well make your journey a lot safer / easier if you are blessed with plentiful snow during your holiday. If you are planning to do many trips to the alps than an allseason tyre with a snowflake & mountain symbol could well be a better option when your tyres need replacing.
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puzzikatt, et al. To save a very tedious repititon of further discussion, you might want to embark on this thread - where all the arguments were thrashed to death.
Then you want to start a non-controversial thread. Helmets would be a good subject to kick you off.
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| Quote: |
fiat panda with skinny wheels) will perform much better than a big heavy jeep
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Not wrong there. What an absolutely fabulous little vehicle it is. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
To save a very tedious repititon of further discussion
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I find them most enjoyable - learn something new each time
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where all the arguments were thrashed to death.
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Well maybe not death, but a long stay in Intensive Care
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As all have said this has been well covered- chains are obligatory, but you'll never be asked to use them on a 4x4. (Mine has a 2 wheel drive option if I did fit chains).
However I have been recently informed (friend gone on Calais wine run), that luminous jackets are being checked. These are also obligatory and must be easy to hand on leaving the vehicle. Not hidden in an under floor boot compartment under all the luggage, like mine usually are!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stick the vests in the door pockets or in the seat backs and should still be able to get to them.....have been caught out needing something in the wheel well before with a boot full of luggage and in the peeing rain and was not best chuffed 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In my experience (and I have a Jeep), the fact that the vehicle is a 4x4 doesn't neccessarily equate to you being safer on icy roads, especially with the standard factory supplied tyres on a Jeep. In ice, as in off-road conditions your performance will be affected by the tyre in contact with the road surface. For sure, having 4 driving wheels is better than only having two and being able to lock the diff is also useful, BUT I would still take and fit snow chains as well. I have struggled in 4 wheel drive in deep snow on the standard tyres getting up a steep hill and also being able to stop coming down a steep hill, and while I was probably marginally more in control than others in 2 wheel drive cars I still did not feel there was sufficient grip on the road in bad conditions.
The police letting you go is one thing, but being safe and in control is what is really important. Jeep will no doubt fleece you for some geniune Mopar snow chains - but if you can pick up a set (and yes, you probably should have four, one for each driving wheel) it may be a safer option for you.
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JulesB, most people are hangin the vests over the passenger seat - police don't bother to stop you because they can see it a mile away.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bump
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FWIW my hire car with winter tyres drove fine in very heavy snow without chains up to Morzine, overtaking many a stranded UK 4x4 driver......
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, but not everybody has a Land Cruiser.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| Spyderman, but not everybody has a Land Cruiser. |
No some of us have proper 4x4s 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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marcellus, Mmm?
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| Torque equals pickup, and the Toyota will have picked up and gone by the time the Land Rover Range Rover finally gets moving. |
This one amused me:
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| The basic warranty that comes with the Toyota Land Cruiser isn't quite as generous as the Land Rover's. |
But being for a Toyota it doesn't need to be. An American web page, I appreciate. Here's a UK one
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| Build quality is irreproachable, precision better than a Benz, but heavy-duty takes the place of rivals’ tactility......Even crawling over rocks that normal 4x4s would consider obstacles, it ploughed on in our hands, uneventfully. It’s praise indeed to say the Cruiser feels so competent off-road that it’s almost dull. The excitement comes when you watch from outside. |
In a sense I think Auto Express got got to the core.
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| It’s certainly a serious 4x4 rather than a soft-roader, but unfortunately it’s not talented enough in everyday conditions to rival the Range Rover. |
In other words, if you need a car for posing in every day conditions, get a Range Rover. If you need a 4x4 for doing real 4x4 work, get a Land Cruiser. I've no need whatsoever for a 4x4 - but watching from afar, as it were, the Land Cruiser would be the one to go for if I did. In really rough conditions, you don't see the Taliban driving Range Rovers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, The first link you've provided for comparison between Range Rover & Land Cruiser, the image of the Range Rover they show isn't even a Range Rover, it's a Range Rover Sport, which is basically a Discovery underneath with a smaller body. Perhaps their comparison is to RR Sport, not Range Rover. I see it's a US website.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 26-09-09 9:50; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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marcellus,  I suppose I looked at the Range Rover as the typical British benchmark for comparison. If I did need a 4x4 I would want it to rely on capability and high reliability, though, since the only reason to have one would be getting out of nasty situations where lack of capability or a technical fault would be embarrassing. Which kinda means buy Toyota. Actually, it does generally, I guess, though for all sorts of oddball reasons, Mrs a and I seem to be locked into Vauxhalls - which have done us well enough.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, he's a fellow snowHead - you should not be resorting to personal abuse.
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achilles, marcellus drives a Defender 110 Land Rover, I know that because I sold him the snowchains for it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles, I suppose if you're talking reliability then I guess it does count the Defender out... as for being stuck in Vauxhalls.... isn't it a pain when the central locking stops working.....
Spyderman, I've still not worked out how to get them on !! 
We've even tried practicing on the spare during the summer... it's become a standing joke in the village... mind you we also reckon that with my full snow tyres on if I need chains as well then noone is going anywhere!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, I apologise for inferring you were being unkind. Remembering my military days, I hope the Defender has improved from what the LR was in the 80s (I suspect it has). In those days, the LRs I drove had excessive steering wheel pay, lacked grunt, and, when driven by the RAF police, had a propensity to break half shafts.
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I think snow chains should be thought of the last resort because once put on the vehicle is restricted to a safe speed not exceeding 30mph. So they are not for high speed cruising but for negotiating difficult road conditions in the presence of snow.
Not all roads require the use of snow chains but those require them will have signs displayed at the strategic points. Mountain passes not only have those signs but may have police presence to enforce the use of the equipment, usually after a heavy snow fall. If the condition is serious the police will close the road.
It is possible a 2WD car with winter tyres can perform better on snow than a 4x4 on summer tyres. At the end of the day it is the tyre that matters most. The 4x4 is less likely to get stuck because the mechanism requires at least two wheels to lose traction (one from the front and one from the rear).
My own experience is some European police can permit a 4x4 with suitable tyres to go into a mountain pass without wearing snow chains. I have never been stopped but I put newish all-season tyres on my 4x4 and there is always a set of snow chains in my boot. Winter tyres are not available in every sizes and many 4x4 simply can't get them on stock rims.
I think it is an inaccurate assertion that a 4x4 needs snow chain on every corner when a 2WD vehicle can get away with two corners. The manufacturers suggest if only two chains are available on a 4x4x they should be put on the tyres of the steering axle as that would provide the stability and control.
On a steep slope the self weight of a vehicle can be resolved into two forces; one acting normal or perpendicular to the slope and another parallel to the slope. These forces are proportional to the weight of the vehicle and so a heavy 4x4 with 3.5 tonnes self weight will put down 0.87 tonnes on each corner. A small 2WD like a Fiat Panda, which weighs no more than 1.2 tonnes, will press on each corner with only 0.3 tonnes. Although a 4x4 can grab the slow at all 4 corners but it need more than two times rolling resistance from the snow (proportional to the 0.87 to 0.3 tonnes weight distrisbution) per wheel to move up the slope. In a Panda even all the weights are concentrated on the two driving wheels the rolling resistance is still 65% of the 4x4 (0.87 tonnes vs 0.6 tonnes). Thus on a like to like basis a lighter car wins except except if one of the driving wheel on the Panda loses traction the Panda will be stuck. In the 4x4 the chance of getting stuck is reduced considerably because two wheels have to lose traction first before the vehicle is immobilized.
A 4x4 is only good at requiring two instead of one wheel losing traction to get stuck in snow. Some models of Grand Cherokee is known to have a superior drive mechanism that can propel the car with any one from the 4 wheels. However if it has a high speed low profile summer tyres on the vehicle is just as lethal on snow as any 2WD car. A 4x4 does have the disadvantage of being heavier. Relying on the snow not being slippery between the tyre rubber and the road surface a 4x4 will become less safe with every degree increase in gradient of the slope.
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You know it makes sense.
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The thing most people forget about 4x4s is that they are no better (or worse) than a 2wd when going downhill. Both have 4-wheel braking, and if that isn't enough - then you are stuffed.
I have no problem with getting stuck when going *up* hills: it's when you can't stop going down that things *really* start to get pants-filling.
Whatever you drive: 2WD or 4WD, if it's likely to be snowy, use appropriate tyres.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I think snow chains should be thought of the last resort
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The trouble with this thinking is that by the time people realise they really, really, really, should have put the chains on they are stuck in the middle of the road causing problems for the rest of us. If you begin to feel loss of traction, put the chains on. Simple. You will feel loss of traction a lot sooner without snow tyres, of course, but they are not invincible. In the "wrong sort of snow", and a decent gradient, they can lose traction quite quickly and as RobW rightly says, if that's when you're going downhill, it's scary.
Snowchains are no big deal. Put them on if locally-registered cars around you seem to be putting them on, and take them off when others around you are taking them off.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w,
Think you misunderstand my meaning. I didn't say the operation of putting the chains on as the last resort. Rather my true meaning is the use of chain is the last resort because one can no longer drive fast and the road condition is bad enough. It takes experience to decide on when to install and remove the chains.
I would agree that many UK motorists are late when they install the chains at the time you must have them and not at the time to anticipate the need of them. There is nothing more dangerous than fitting a chain on the road side with traffic streaming through and the installer has no prior experience how to put it on. Remember the passing traffic can skid too and take the installer out!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| ...The trouble with this thinking is that by the time people realise they really, really, really, should have put the chains on they are stuck in the middle of the road causing problems for the rest of us. .... |
Rubbish. I do not get in trouble before I put chains on. Soddit. I have even put chains on in Lincoln before I could get into trouble. I am beginning to detect evangelistic fervour on behalf of the winter tyres lobby, here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have nothing really to add except to say I am glad this subject is still being raised and hope it does for years to come, for whilst I now know what I know, there will always be someone who has read the AA website and trawled forums and just wants to hear someone (or read) say something that chimes with what he was thinking or conversely makes him jump to action to sort out an oversight.
Ultimately if you don't want to read or talk about snowchains, helmets or eurostar trips to ski resorts, you might like to question why you are on this site or at least not click the button and make newer members wish they had never opened their mouths?
ps Subaru is what you want, will drive through 2m of snow without chains 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Kaiser, I'd like a Forester but they're too expensive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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But don't let anyone think you can't do any of this without jeeps, 4WDs etc. The vast majority of the cars round the resorts all season (including mine) are just dead ordinary.
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On the general debate about when to put chains on or not I was always told that you can never put them on too early...... it is far better to put them on before you need them for definate than risk it and think I'll put them on in a minute and it be too late.... als
Also it's not just tourists who get it wrong, it is not uncommon to see "73" and "74" plated cars slide off the road when the 1st snows come in October/November... Most locals do have winter and summer tyres, but as winter tyres wear so much quicker they/we like to leave them on for as short a period as possible....
Once you're into the season all tourists are as bad as each other with not knowing when to or not to chain up judging by who you see in the ditches.
The funniest I saw last year was a during the middle of a good dump I had to drop clients in teh village, I was approached by a man and the conversation went along the lines of;
man "do I need to put chains on"
me "yes"
Man "why... you've not got them on"
me "no I've got full snow tyres and in a 4x4 (Land Rover Defender btw)
Man "ok, thanks"
Anyway, went back to chalet, set table, served pre-dinner drinks and clients still not back so they ring to ask me to pick them up and off I toddle......... get there and they're trying to help a man get his car out of a dich......
man sheepishly looks at me and says "thought I'd risk it".......... needless to say I got the tow rope out and gave him a tug!!
Spyderman, must try again thanks for teh link!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| marcellus wrote: |
| .... as for being stuck in Vauxhalls.... isn't it a pain when the central locking stops working........ |
Had a problem with an H reg Cavalier where the locks were oscillating between locked and open. No problem since. Had no idea it was in any way common.
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The funniest I saw last year
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was a Frenchman in a Porsche Cayenne, stuck deeeeeeeeeeeeeep into a snowdrift. We pulled the stupid great thing out, of course. Entente cordiale and all that. 
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FAQ
