 Poster: A snowHead
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I made a brief mention of this on another thread (in the Resorts section).
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skisimon wrote,
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mixing up kids with other nationalities, but can see that this can cause huge social problems
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Is the BMSRC a branch of the BNP   |
I thought I would expand a bit more and seek other opinions.
I really do like the idea of kids from different nationalities mixing (even the Welsh and Scottish...  ). Unfortunately, I think there are just too many problems in the short term of doing this.
Kids are great at interacting and getting on with other kids (usually). However, whilst they will almost always find someway to communicate, and even just laughing at each other in a ski lesson can be good, language is an issue. Whilst 'doing' there isn't such a problem, but when the group stops for a while, on chair-lifts or for lunch, it becomes time to talk, and there the split may start. The group might split into groups - suddenly, little Johnny, the only English kid goes from seeming the interesting and fun pal on the slopes, to the kid they can't actually speak to when they sit down.
Over a long period it can work and develop though, as the language is learnt - and then you have a kid that has spent time with, and developed with others - French, Italian... A new language, new friends, perhaps even a new way of thinking (hopefully alongside their original). Both sets of kids get an appreciation for the others.
Again though, I think that it may be counter productive over just a week, and definitely if it's just a day lesson. You alos have the problem of communication with the instructor... There's always a very good chance that the instructor of a kids' lesson is not going to be one of the school's top instructors - as such there may be more generic instructions and drills than one might like; even so, there would usually be some commentary to every member of the group. Everything has to be said twice or more, in each language, so that all of the kids can understand
I spent a week of half-day lessons in France in a mixed group. Originally there were three of us in the competition group (me, an English girl and a French guy). We picked up a few others (all French) who were pushed up from their group by their instructor. Now, being an adult lesson, we were able to communicate to a degree (not a degree level though...). With my fairly limited French, and their, somewhat better, English, we were able to communicate throughout the course and I gathered that we all had a really good time. The English girl and I were the interesting foreigners who were in Morzine skiing, and they were the friendly, fun and welcoming French skiers that we were able to try and improve our French on! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Booked my daughter, 11 at the time, in for the English Etoile D'Or class in LDA at Easter 2007. First day we turned up and the class was her only. Next day they moved her into the French class and after ensuring the instructor spoke good English (it was very good) I was happy with that (as was Natalie). A couple of other English kids joined from other classes too. I saw the group around the mountain on several occasions and the guy was very good explaining everything in French and English. Natalie got on very well with a couple of the French girls around her age(although they understood each other very little) and she thoroughly enjoyed her classes and learned a fair bit although this was limited a little by the size of the class.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 2-11-08 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skisimon, I am in favour of mixed groups, but it's very hard work for the instructor. With kids there shouldn't be more than the most basic instructions given anyway, so it doesn't altogether cause a problem. However what I have found in the past is that with little dutch or belgian children along with french italians, brits or whatever there is no issue at all. In fact in one week one little dutch kid had learnt enough french (he was 5) that he told me he didn't need a translation! Unfortunately I haven't seen this degree of internationality with the british children on the whole. Many seem to have already picked up the idea that foreigners are somehow different, and consequently remain rather removed. It has worked int he past, but generally it's the instructor who has to make it work - not the child.
For adults, 2 languages are manageable, but 3 becomes difficult due to the length of explanation time. OTOH one of the most 'engaged' groups I ever taught at the ESI had, 1 brit, 2 dutch, several belgians (both waloon and flemish) and a german guy. they all got on really well. However I reduced most of the teaching to french and english and only spoke german when the guy didn't understand what I'd said in english. I've had a few mixed groups with Easiski and it's never been a problem, child or adult, but of course max 4 in a group makes life much easier! The poor instructor is absolutely knackered at the end of the lesson though!!
I once had a group of 7 kids with 6 different languages while at the ESI - that was hard as I didn't speak them all!!!
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Interesting... I would think it a good idea...as long as the instruction comes across, what's the problem..?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Our experience is fairly limited (two years of lessons for two children, first was private lessons with both together, second was ESF in a small resort) - for us, the latter didn't work well. The class was 11 or 12 children of whom our two were the only non-French. There were two instructors, one spoke virtually no English, the other a bit more. Overall, it wasn't a pleasant experience, although only part of that was down to language problems. That was exacerbated by the size of the class and the less than helpful attitude of the instructors. The first year was also ESF, in a small resort, but the private lessons with the older French lady who had pretty good English, were a joy. The boys cried when they left her!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Went to Belle Plagne in April this year and stuck our 3 kids (9,8,7) in 3 seperate nationality mixed ESF classes. I was amazed how quickly they all mixed and talked and they all learnt fine. Its only the adults that have the hang ups 
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Anniepen, It sounds like ESF group lessons are the problem rather more than mixed nationality groups. I've never understood why anyone is prepared to pay the ESF for children's group lessons. Five kids might get something from it (the five that always make sure they are at the front perhaps). Their group sizes are far too big to be effective, and I am suspicious of how easy it is for the instructor to keep track of all 12+ kids (of course, the latter is not so vital if there are two instructors as in your case).
In essence, (if I had kids) were I to pay for ski lessons for my kids I would expect a lesson. Not a guided ski tour/child minding service. 
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How fitting that my 2000th post is a critical opinion about the ESF. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skisimon, Well done 
To be fair(?), we used ESF in Plan Peisey with Esprit in Janaury for the kids and they were rubbish, just rubbish. Wouldnt go back to Peisey again due to them. ESF in Belle Plagne in April were ok but now have bought a place in Arc 2000 and will use the Independent school in Arc 1950 instead of ESF in ARC 2000.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Anniepen, I hope you didn't feel that I was suggesting that you were. 
Everyone's got to find out about the ESF somehow... I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience, especially after taking the effort to contact the ski school to confirm the details.
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My kids go to a part of Switzerland were a dialect German is the main language and V.V. little English is spoken - we are often the only English amongst a moutain of Swiss National kids. When they know we are visiting they re-gig the instructors to ensure that those with a little English get my kids, on the whole they are instructed in German, but appear to do OK (the eldest won the ski race this year - That went down like a lead ballon with some of the Swiss Parents I bet LOL). Also, mine spend a lot of time with the children of my Swiss Friends - they interact just like kids do - fine!!
However, I must say I am looking forward to them doing ski school in VT this year, as I hope that they may have a better chance of some instruction in English. The EoSB this year saw my first lessons in English and it was a good experience.
You can do well with not too much language match, but it is nice to have.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skisimon, Congratulations on your birthday!
I have to agree with easiski. The instructor can and has to make it work. I only had 2 weeks without french kids... and i don't exactly speak french. I never had the impression the french kids did worse then english, dutch and german speaking kids (hell, even the Portuguese speaking brazillian kid did fine, and I didn't have, still don't have a ski dictionary into portuguese)
A French/littttllle german speaking girl even recognised me from the year before, and didn't seem unhappy at all (despite she fell and mildly injured herself during the lessons  )
Try to pick up keywords from dictionaries, even ski-specific dictionaries. Thats usually enough, combined with lots of gestures to make it work.
Then, kids mostly pick up things from watching you and other kids and trying to do it (You got that in the CSIA1 I hope!!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ronald, there seems to be a lot of reference to kids needing explanations on the forum - I hate the idea of giving small children explanations - how much more quickly could you put them off skiing altogether. they are not miniature adults!!!
Lou, I don't think it's being able to speak the language, but I think that english society is so saturated (press etc) with the idea that foreigners are not the same as us that even quite small kids have picked up on this. If parents would stop insisting on conversation that would help. Certainly up to 6 or 7 they don't actually converse with each other - one says what they want to and the other ditto - the 2 remarks might have absolutely no relation to each other! In this case what is said is actually irrelevant!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
Ronald, there seems to be a lot of reference to kids needing explanations on the forum - I hate the idea of giving small children explanations - how much more quickly could you put them off skiing altogether. they are not miniature adults!!!
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The Austrian instructor course (Anwarter) has a module Childrens tuition which stresses VERY clearly kids are not small adults, and therefor we need to work very differently with children compared to adults.
The younger the kids, the less I explain, I actually did that right even before I got the formal qualification
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Lou wrote: |
I agree totally that explanations are off putting, often for adults too |
In the Anwarter course we were encouraged to FIRST give the example what we want done by the guests, then explain what is not yet clear....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Certainly up to 6 or 7 they don't actually converse with each other - one says what they want to and the other ditto - the 2 remarks might have absolutely no relation to each other! In this case what is said is actually irrelevant!!
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How very true! I remember one camping trip, to north-west Scotland, where my little brother, then about 5 or 6, who lived in South Wales, became bosom pals with a wee lad from Wishaw (not far from Glasgow). They spoke not one single word of each other's language but they fished, and played with their model boats, and generally pottered round and had a wonderful time, both chattering away, often simultaneously.
My daughter, then aged 4.5, had her first ski lessons in a big group in Austria, entirely German speaking and the instructor spoke no English. She was by no means a particularly intrepid little girl. We taught her to smile and "Ich kann nicht Deutsch" if anyone nattered at her in German and all was well. Her only complaint was that all the others were "babies" because it was the veriest beginner class and all the others were 3. The instructor was a very nice woman, she smiled at them and did big gestures and movements for them to copy, and they all did it. I prefer seeing little kids pottering round in a group with an instructor, even an ESF one with 10 of them, than with an incompetent parent nagging and "explaining".
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lou wrote: |
easiski,
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Unfortunately I haven't seen this degree of internationality with the british children on the whole.
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Yes I agree, just from what I've seen, and haven't got your experience obviously. This must come down to the fact that the UK is so appalling when it comes to getting children started learning modern foreign languages. I think it's getting better, slowly? |
I thought Gordon Brown and co. just made foreign language optional at GCSE level rather than compulsory? I hope I'm mistaken
They should be making French or German compulsory from age 6, much like English is in many parts of mainland Europe.
Colleagues kids have picked up English very quickly at age 4 when place in English schools. Not sure if it works the other way around, but I don't think it's fair to compare 5-6 half day lessons with regular school, even if both are expensive.
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andy, kids pick up languages REAL quick.
I once had 3 kids from a greek family in my class... While I speak very rusty beginners greek, the 4 year old's english was better then my greek...
Now thats an exception even for greek kids (They do get english very early in school there) but it shows what is possible.
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andy, At primary level they have introduced language, for us that's German but I don't know how they decide. It seems to be a very gentle start in Key Stage 2 (aged 8ish) and although my 9 yr old says he hates German, because the rest of us are Francophiles , I think it's very good for him. Unfortunately it's only one lesson a week for 30 mins and no homework, so it's seems to be treated a bit like a hobby rather than an important part of the curriculum. We have parents evening tomorrow and I will ask, as before, how he is getting on with German and I expect his teacher will be surprised, as before, that I have asked.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My kids have had French sessions each week since starting school. However, they are at the top of their class due to the fact that they have had a private French class each since they were about 3
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We usually go on holiday with friends who have 4 boys, we have 2 girls wide range in age and ability so they usually end up in a number of different groups. We have used ESF on a number of occasions and when there has been a problem it seems to be with a specific instructor. Certainly we have had very good experience with ESF in Tignes including with mixed nationality groups.
(I'm not sure why but I read that back in a Dutch accent and it worked better).
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FAQ
I know the little kids won't often say much in any language. Until a snowball fight starts, now they're good for international relations!
