 Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| [Why someone should come on here in such a patronizing tone insinuating BASI qualifiactions are better/harder or are better respected than other european teaching qualifications beats me. |
I agree, providing you compare like with like.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, I don't agree at all that BASI doesn't have the same prestige. These days, with the raised level at the top of BASI it's considered just as good IME.
You do seem to be confusing the speed test (Eurotest) which is further along the progression perhaps with the 'test technique' which is the entry level for french instructors. There is a very big difference in difficulty. The French were much more helpful about integrating BASI with the european systems in the beginning than any other country. You have to be qualified to do anything in France - not just ski teaching.
I'm sooo tired of this same old stuff coming out. You can teach in france at a lower level, but at least they are honest. They say 'you are an apprentice' whereas in Switzerland and Austria you can work and they'll just treat you like an apprentice!
Italy, Austria (much harder than the french system), France and GB all have a speed test. I believe the Germans and the Spanish are moving this way too. Let's not get into this same old argument, which has no relevance to the OP and has been done to death on a number of occasions.
slikedges, The standard of Brit instructors I saw in Wengen last year was shocking. If they were level 2 they were a poor example. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This debate is very ego fuelled. An instructor, regardless of qualification and awarding body, is as good as the job they do. In other words, how happy their clients are and if they continue to re book!
BASI at its ISIA and ISTD levels require a high level of general competence. These instructors are the "general practitioners" of skiing. Also, BASI sell instructors in the European market, they export instructors. Therefore, BASI has to align with its European neighbours.
If Intended to work in Canada, I would probably pursue CSIA qualifications for example. I believe, that in the English speaking world, BASI stands as ONE of the best educational systems for ski instructors. If you are British, you are likely to start with your national association, that's logical.
If ts all about levels of technical competence, then we should be discussing the world cup results. A very measurable, objective example.
Ski instructors need to be good skiers, but lets not get carried away. How good do they really need to be?
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rob@rar,
I agree that BASI does well to compete with and gain the recognition it does. Doubt it will ever be quite as well respected as the ski instruction from various ski countries for the follwoing reasons .....
1) A lot of BASI ski instructors are part-time and are good recreational skiers who go for ski instructor qualifications later on in life. In general these people won't ski as well as locals grown up with skiing in the mountains from a very early age.
2) The top level coaches for such things as racing are better than UK coaches this experience / skill is also fed into the teaching systems.
3) The talent pool is much bigger in ski countries.
Don't get me wrong anyone who gets to BASI's top level without spending seasons in the mountains from a very early age get's my full respect. However insinuating BASI is better than these ski countries ski instruction systems (as a whole including top levels) is incorrect and will only bring ridicule or cause problems with such ski countries.
For me the badge doesn't define a good / bad ski instructor, the person behind the badge does.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, one person has suggested that BASI is better than other national systems, and he has received no support for that position, so I don't know why you are getting excited by that comment. I think your three points are as equaly irrelevant or unfounded as the comment suggesting BASI is better 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you are comparing race coach awards I'd agree with you that the UK does not have the same pedigree for developing coaches, but BASI are addressing this and have imported with some modifications the Canadian coaching curriculum which is extremely well regarded AIUI. |
Been drinking the Kool Aid ?
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rjs, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| Are you related to BASI in some way or something? |
Only as a paying customer.
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| Quote: |
Last season a candidate passed the BASI Level 1 but proceeded to fail the CSIA Level 1 the very next week (and I can tell you exactly why).
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veeeight, I am curious as to the whys in that case to understand what weakness a basi L1 would have in the CSIA curriculum... can you explain?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, Probably not on the Technical, I'd say not providing the 'Guest Experience' CSIA are very much into Student centred learning, focused teaching is something that BASI L1 lacks.
I too would be interested to hearing from veeeight why.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think this is all quite interesting. I certainly see this as exposing a few ideas around why people do BASI and what that really represents. I'd never thought of it as a badge of "how good I am" before - but actually now I'm reconsidering that and thinking that perhaps that is true for some people who aspire to getting the qualification. I do have a problem with the idea of a british ski instructor in the same way as I would consider a british surf instructor just not quite having it in the genes compared with an Australian (for example). That said, I've met some really good british ski instructors and I've also met some poor French and Austrian ones. But as I say (for me) there is something less authentic about us trying to do it but it is certainly no less valid.
I'm a bit confused by all the initials and acronyms and I don't understand completely why we compare BASI with the Canadian system specifically but not any of the other systems. Perhaps I have missed something historically on this.
| Quote: |
1) A lot of BASI ski instructors are part-time and are good recreational skiers who go for ski instructor qualifications later on in life. In general these people won't ski as well as locals grown up with skiing in the mountains from a very early age.
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I guess if the first part is true, then the second part of the argument is probably a reasonable assumption.
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2) The top level coaches for such things as racing are better than UK coaches this experience / skill is also fed into the teaching systems.
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This makes sense. As a nation we don't actually have (m)any world class skiers, and I can see the following argument. We do quite well considering that we are not an alpine nation, but not great.
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3) The talent pool is much bigger in ski countries.
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I'm not sure about this but I suppose if one and two are correct, then in a ratio of numbers to talent then it's probably true.
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johnnyh, Lots of aussies seem to do that.... go off and do a CSIA 1 course... then they can say "I am a ski instructor".... CSIA seem to have quite a nice business running CSIA 1 courses both at home and abroad.... I don't really think all those courses are just to recruit instructors 
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski,
Surprized that you say the the Austrian system is harder but they all carry the same prestige. I'm not trying to get into a peeing contest to say whos ski teaching system is best. I respect that the qualifiactions are now equivalent but in terms of skiing ability I'd generally expect the locals to be the better skiers (although a native english ski instructor will normally be able to communicate better with a UK student). For this reason I don't think it is a good idea for anybody who supports BASI to start overstepping the mark and proclaiming superiority. Perhaps no-one with any BASI link would do that and Anderson is nothing but a troll.
Not knocking BASI I'm knocking someone appears to be a troll.
It's funny how the cultures are different, I've heard many a Brit brag about what ski badge he had in the ski bar (normally SKGB milk bottle top silver or something). An Austrian work colleague said he "skied a bit" and only after a lot of interrogation from me admitted he had just passed the speed test and was 0.1 seconds slower than the pace setter. Quietly surprizing them on the piste/offpiste gains much more respect than talk from behind a badge. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Quietly surprizing them on the piste/offpiste gains much more respect . . .
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That's certainly how I've always seen it . . . I think it's much better like that. To be honest, you know when you see someone ski if they're good or not, it doesn't matter if they're an instructor or not, you can tell once you're on the mountain with them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
easiski,
For this reason I don't think it is a good idea for anybody who supports BASI to start overstepping the mark and proclaiming superiority. Perhaps no-one with any BASI link would do that and Anderson is nothing but a troll.
Not knocking BASI I'm knocking someone appears to be a troll. |
Can I just point out that I have not proclaimed superiority. I have just pointed out (see my original post - and “all” other posts) that some countries have assessments that do not require the same level of technical ability as a BASI qualification. So if you really want a badge then this is an simpler method - Does that make me a troll. OK.
Patronising - condescending - "very" subjective . Does that mean that I disagree with and don't to play the game. Sorry about that but sometimes life just ain't fair and people will disagree with your point of view.
That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong, it just means we disagree.
Over the years I have been reading this website I have gained lots of insights into the way skiers and boarders think - which I really enjoy. But I have always been surprised by the way in which “outsiders” (that’s anyone with a point of view the goes against the consensus of the forum) is demeaned.
| GrahamN wrote: |
| You do seem to be reinforcing the rather unfortunate "senior instructor stereotype" - please don't be such a patronising prick next time! |
Maybe it’s a bit like Dissing BASI if you not good enough to pass – it’s easier to Diss someone who disagrees with you than accept that there just may be alternative points of view that are just as valid as you own and this does not make the other person deserving of a slagging off – but again, it is easier, ain’t it. QED
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Johnathon Anderson, easiski, my comment was purely in relation to the sentence I quoted, originally addressed to beanie1, which (if it made any sense at all) was highly patronising. FWIW, I don't think there's much dissing on here of BASI - or at least as it operates in recent years, particularly since the development of the closer relationship with CSIA/CSCF. As I've said here before, I'm quite impressed by the recent grade 3/level 2s I've seen. What BASI dissing I've seen is essentially from "kewl doods" who probably don't understand the difference between being a decent skier/whatever and being an instructor/coach - and the occasional gripe about the costs (e.g. I got a grand total of 6 week's membership "benefits" for my first annual subs  ). And I essentially agree with the title of the thread, although I have heard of cases recently where the playing field was not obviously level.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| I got a grand total of 6 week's membership "benefits" for my first annual subs ). |
What benifits ? - I never got any - can I have some of yours
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| If" you are good enough - you will pass - if not ?? |
| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| if you have the honor to be in the same resort as a BASI member |
| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| Of course with any skill (skiing, medical, Electrical, etc etc) there are part of the world where the standard required will very - some are higher than (in this case) BASI and some lower |
| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| I go for the last bits of the ISTD this season |
You sound to me like someone who believes once they past their advanced driving instructors course they could beat Lewis Hamiliton at the weekend.
A lot of the information you present is totaly one sided and only tells half the story. To think that other people here (including other ski instructors) don't know any different to what you present here is patronizing. The fact that I suspect you are a troll is because your approach appears to be doing more harm than good to BASI. Perhaps more importantly it undermines the good BASI instructors out there who don't have their head that far up their butt that they need a stomach window to see where they are going.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 23-10-08 14:44; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ha Ha - I like you - speak your mind
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| Can I just point out that I have not proclaimed superiority. I have just pointed out (see my original post - and “all” other posts) that some countries have assessments that do not require the same level of technical ability as a BASI qualification. |
Which BASI qualification? BASI Level 1 does not require a very high level of technical ability. Are you saying that some versions of the ISTD qualification, for example, are easier to achieve than BASI's version of the ISTD?
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May be totally wrong about this so apologies in advance, you would need to ask a trainer for the definitive answer.
But as far as I know
BASI 1 = CSIA 1, NZSIA CSI, PSIA 1, ASSI
BASI 2 = CSIA 2, NZSIA 1, PSIA 2
BASI ISIA = CSIA 3, NZSIA 2, PSIA 3, Stagiere
BASI ISTD = French National Diploma, Austrian National Diploma, Italian Maestro
I have not mentioned by name the various standards of each country (and I'm not going to).
Anyone who has the top 2 levels will need to display basically the same high level
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even from my brief brushes with BASI I don't think anyone ever pretended that their entry levels (ie 1 and 2) were equivalent to anything in particular
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
BASI 1 = CSIA 1, NZSIA CSI, PSIA 1, ASSI
BASI 2 = CSIA 2, NZSIA 1, PSIA 2
BASI ISIA = CSIA 3, NZSIA 2, PSIA 3, Stagiere
BASI ISTD = French National Diploma, Austrian National Diploma, Italian Maestro
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I've heard a number of people say the same as that, so I'm curious which of those qualifications you think is easier than the equivalent BASI award? Is the French National Diploma easier to achieve than BASI's ISTD, for example, of CSIA 3 easier to acheive than BASI's ISIA?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
BASI 1 = CSIA 1, NZSIA CSI, PSIA 1, ASSI
BASI 2 = CSIA 2, NZSIA 1, PSIA 2
BASI ISIA = CSIA 3, NZSIA 2, PSIA 3, Stagiere
BASI ISTD = French National Diploma, Austrian National Diploma, Italian Maestro
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I've heard a number of people say the same as that, so I'm curious which of those qualifications you think is easier than the equivalent BASI award? Is the French National Diploma easier to achieve than BASI's ISTD, for example, of CSIA 3 easier to acheive than BASI's ISIA? |
It's just my opinion (so may be wrong) but I think that all people who get the higher end badge are about the same - of course there will always be exceptions - lets face it some people are just brilliant
*******************************
Taken from the CSIA website (level 1)
To attend the Level 1 Course, you must be at least 15 years old as of the final day of the course you take. You should be a good parallel skier able to demonstrate good mechanics while skiing.
It is relatively easy to find work in Canada and America with level 1. You can find work outside of North America with just level 1 but having level 2 will open more doors.
********************************
Taken From the BASI Website (Level 1)
A total of 35 hours minimum of teaching/ski school experience is part of the Level 1 Instructor training course. Teaching Ski School experience may include any of the following:
* Understanding how bookings are taken and how people are selected into different standards
* Shadowing experienced Instructors delivering lessons
* Delivering lessons as per the constraints for the Level 1 Licence
* Understanding how customer satisfaction is assessed and how dissatisfied customers are dealt with
* Understanding how the Customer satisfaction procedures improve Instructor and administrational practices
* Taking part in and understanding in house staff training for Instructors
* Understanding how Snowsports Schools maintain Safety standards and maintain their currency of good practice
* Understanding the Risk Assessment process that Snowsport Schools and Instructors take
* Understand Accident and First Aid procedures including accident reporting
Be 16 years of age or older. (Students who successfully pass the Level 1 qualification, will not receive their BASI Licence until they are 18 years old).
This is the entry level course for students who wish to join the BASI Education System.
The qualification is for those wishing to find employment in a non mountain environment,
i.e. Dry Slopes and Indoor Snowslopes. It is also the 1st stage of the BASI Instructor Level 2.
Before applying for an Alpine Level 1 Instructor course, students must:
Be able to ski parallel confidently, coping with a variety of conditions and have completed at least 16 weeks of skiing.
Be able to ski parallel confidently on red runs, making rhythmical turns close to the fall line at a steady pace.
Have an understanding of Client care
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just found this ?
One of the other main advantages of the CSIA is that once you have passed the first qualification (level 1) you can actually instruct. This compares to the first level of BASI which doesn’t actually allow you to instruct.
http://www.nonstopski.com/instructor-courses/qualifications/
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonathan
BASI L1 does allow you to instruct - on artificial slopes in the UK. BASI L1 is pitched somewhere between Club Instructor and ASSI - so a higher level than the CI (which in my view is shockingly low), but still an achievable entry level for people starting out.
It does not qualify to teach in a mountain environment, but you could possibly also get a job in some ski schools in Switzerland (but probably in the same ski schools who’d also employ you with no qualifications).
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| beanie1 wrote: |
Jonathan
BASI L1 does allow you to instruct - on artificial slopes in the UK. BASI L1 is pitched somewhere between Club Instructor and ASSI - so a higher level than the CI (which in my view is shockingly low), but still an achievable entry level for people starting out.
It does not qualify to teach in a mountain environment, but you could possibly also get a job in some ski schools in Switzerland (but probably in the same ski schools who’d also employ you with no qualifications). |
I'm not going to comment on what the standards required for ski badges are (and I never have - although reading the rest of the thread you'd think I had) , thats up to the governing body of the country to sort out what they think is a minimum standard - all I have said is that some badges from some countries don't require the same skill level as BASI.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1,
Which is higher Club Instructor and ASSI
Sorry never been on a dry slope (other than for coffee)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| ... all I have said is that some badges from some countries don't require the same skill level as BASI. |
Are you sure you are comparing like-with-like? Pretty pointless to compare a CSIA 1 with BASI ISIA, just as it is pointless to compare PSIA 3 with BASI 1.
Maybe I'm having an especially stupid day but I'm having trouble understanding what your point is, so my apologies if I'm missing something obvious.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Johnathon Anderson,
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BASI L1 does allow you to instruct - on artificial slopes in the UK.
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was in response to your comment:
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This compares to the first level of BASI which doesn’t actually allow you to instruct.
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I then elaborated further, not in directo response to anything you said.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ASSI is higher.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For comparisons... From the CSIA newsletter a few weeks back (as discussed at the time):
ISIA Performance Level 1 = CSIA Level 3
ISIA Performance Level 2 = CSIA Level 4
ISIA Performance Level 3 = CSIA Level 4 + ISIA technical test (racing or euro test) and ISIA safety test
ISIA Performance Level 2 being the level to gain an ISIA Stamp now (so as I understand it: CSIA L4 = ISIA; CSIA L4 + tech test and safety test = ISTD).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skisimon, thats interesting but i beleive you are referring to the new "pyramid scheme" that ISIA is putting in place. The effective date is still TBD...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skisimon, skimottaret, any idea how current BASI qualifications line up with those ISIA performance levels?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Are you sure you are comparing like-with-like? Pretty pointless to compare a CSIA 1 with BASI ISIA, just as it is pointless to compare PSIA 3 with BASI 1 |
No I wasn't, I was comparing like for like
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Anyway end of thread for me
Airport in 6 hours, not ski but work
It has been a plessure
See ya
Zermat in Nov
Val in Jan
Tignes in Feb
If your there 
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| Johnathon Anderson wrote: |
| No I wasn't, I was comparing like for like |
OK. Care to be a little bit more specific? The veiled references are leaving me just a bit puzzled.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe I'm having an especially stupid day but I'm having trouble understanding what your point is, so my apologies if I'm missing something obvious. |
i think we established this thread had no point on page 1! 
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rob@rar, I am sure i read some minutes of BASI meetings that said the current structure of BASI allows ISIA's to gets the stamp and ISTD gets the new card. CSIA and PSIA have to implement a form of eurotest as well as offpiste mountain safety courses to qualify their levels.
Also of interest was that the "EuroGroup" has formed a proper company and talk was the French were going to be a splinter group from ISIA if i read the notes correctly (they werent that clear). have a look on the BASI site..
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FAQ
