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How ridiculous! (Winter Tyre discussion warning) Updated - reply from Churchill

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles, wuss wink

As this (and other threads) show - it is a complete minefield for most of us. If you live in the mountains and/or there is snow on the ground for large parts of the year, fitting proper winter tyres is an obvious thing to do.

For most of us, who perhaps only make one trip a year, of which 90%+ is on well cleared motorway, our normal summer tyres and chains will suffice. Until I started hanging around here - I didn't even know there were such things as Winter Tyres Embarassed

The rules and advice to me certainly don't seem clear and are contradictory - its a legal requirement regardless v no it isn't

I am at the point where I need to replace 2-tyres regardless. The best compromise for my situation is to fitAll Season Tyres, with snowflake symbol. Will give me a bit of help in light snow and also some benefit getting on and off camp sites in the UK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Boris,
Quote:

I didn't even know there were such things as Winter Tyres

and now you need vest and triangle as well wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Boris, I think we just need to try to distinguish between what is legal requirement, what is "best", and what is practical in the circumstances you describe. In what I have gleaned from this thread, and previous ones these three are very different:

Legal: Other than in Finland the tyres that are legal in the UK are legal in Europe, so in Austria or Germany they can't fine you for having the wrong tyres. What they can do though is fine you for not making normal progress and causing holdups or accidents, also they can stop you driving on roads where summer tyres aren't a lot of cop. The situation with chains seems to be similar - if you haven't got them you can't go where they are needed.

Whats Best: Depends entirely on the type of roads you are going to drive on. For a drive across England, then down the motorway to the alps, then up 25 miles of potentially snowy road there is no best, as different parts of the journey are in entirely different conditions.

What's practical: I go along with you in general. I have made several trips to the alps using summer tyres and chains with no issues, but I needed two new tyres, so got my local dealer to get me some "winter" tyres. He got for a sensible price 4 Kumho KW17 tyres, they are marked M & S, and with a snowflake, and a mountain with a snowflake. They have lots of lateral sipes for grip in snow, they got me off a very muddy campsite last weekend, and they seem to perform OK on the road. Come spring I'll get 2 summer tyres and have a full set of those until the autumn again.
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saikee, as I've said above Michelin have three types of winter tyre, one in each of first three categories I've put tyres into. The relative strengths of the harder rubber type vs the softer rubber type is shown in the first table (to which I've now added my categories). For sure I would be choosing either a cat. 3 or 4 tyre based on the driving that I do and would be likely to do if I drove to the Alps. I don't do enough driving on snow and/or to need the softer rubber type or the studded type. Personally, I prefer to have winter tyres (of cat. 3) rather than all season tyres (of cat 4) for my car. My main concern though, was that people should not confuse tyres I put in cat 4 (Quatracs in second table) with those in cat 5 (those in the first table with the rather long braking distances) when they are both marked as M+S tyres, the difference being the snowflake/mountain symbol.
achilles in Norway, Finland and Sweden driving at 60mph on hard packed snow is the normal thing to do. Is Austria much different? I'd imagine people would be rather fed up at being stuck behind someone doing 30mph. The winter equivalent to caravan drivers Toofy Grin.
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peura, snowproblem. I'll join the Parisians going to the French Alps. Laughing

PS, in France at least, there have been many times when I would have been hugely grateful to be travelling at over 30mph near resort. I think you live in a different world (full of exciting tyre catalogues) from me.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 14-10-08 14:28; edited 1 time in total
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achilles wrote:
peura, snowproblem. I'll join the Parisians going to the French Alps. Laughing


Just wear a stripped top and hang a few onions from your wing mirrors, nobody will know the difference.
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DB, quite.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
achilles no, most of my winter holidays are taken in Nordic countries. A "bit" (or even a lot) of snow and ice doesn't make any of them wish they had snow chains, nor does it make them the winter equivalent of caravan drivers. In fact, AFAIKT the car hire companies don't even list them as an option but it's a given you'll get winter tyres. I don't think many of the locals possess snow chains, certainly none of my friends there do.
Any thoughts on those who've had to drive through snow the whole way to the Alps? Could take a long time if you can only do half the speed of the locals.
My use for winter tyres currently is primarily in the Welsh mountains. Yes, I've even had to use snowchains here a couple of years ago. However, I have in mind that I may well want to drive to the Alps so I try to make sure than whatever I chose is not inconsistent with that.
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Interesting stuff on driving in Austria here

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling-and-living-overseas/travel-advice-by-country/europe/austria Shocked (Scroll down its a long article)

Especially if you are towing a caravan in winter wink
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peura,
Quote:

Any thoughts on those who've had to drive through snow the whole way to the Alps?

Yep have done so several times on summer tyres at sensible speeds, the French are very good at clearing their roads. Only once has snowfall been serious enough to disrupt the journey and the Gendarmes were stacking the HGV's north of Lyon and convoys of cars led by snowploughs kept the traffic moving, even so only 2 hours was added to the entire journey and we were kept informed by Autoroute radio, so we knew the road after Chambery was clear! (In fact it hadn't snowed!)
Dover however was chaos and the Police were in the process of closing the roads as we drove through and just managed to board our ferry on time.
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peura wrote:
...........Any thoughts on those who've had to drive through snow the whole way to the Alps? Could take a long time if you can only do half the speed of the locals.......


I am beginning to lose the will to live following this thread - so one last post in it. Very briefly, on the way out to the Alps - say as far as Moutiers, you will be extremely unlucky to need chains, since French road clearance is phenomenally good. If you do, then the locals will have a problem anyway (even if caused only by the Parisians and me wink), and you may as well hole up in a hotel. Certainly, I would not be interested in driving it. Thereafter you can bet your life that traffic will be grinding very slowly up the hill. I see no point in responding further on this one. You are utterly convinced I should have snow tyres, I see them as wholly inappropriate for my circumstances. We are not going to convince each other.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
achilles, we could always discuss helmets instead Toofy Grin

(For the record, I use winter tyres but I'm not a zealot - ultimately good driving skills and road manners will be as important).
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achilles wrote:
You are utterly convinced I should have snow tyres, I see them as wholly inappropriate for my circumstances. We are not going to convince each other.
Not really Little Angel. I'm just utterly convinced that I would want to have winter tyres if I was doing what you are. I really can't see any downsides to using properly selected winter tyres. I'm only trying to provide information to help with this selection, based on what I've found out. However, you are free to make up your own mind about your requirements. Here's another question: should I take a hat and gloves on my skiing holiday to the Alps? When I've been there (in the winter) it's not really been cold enough (only about freezing) to need them Little Angel .
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
achilles wrote:
peura wrote:
...........Any thoughts on those who've had to drive through snow the whole way to the Alps? Could take a long time if you can only do half the speed of the locals.......


I am beginning to lose the will to live following this thread - so one last post in it. Very briefly, on the way out to the Alps - say as far as Moutiers, you will be extremely unlucky to need chains, since French road clearance is phenomenally good. If you do, then the locals will have a problem anyway (even if caused only by the Parisians and me wink), and you may as well hole up in a hotel. Certainly, I would not be interested in driving it. Thereafter you can bet your life that traffic will be grinding very slowly up the hill. I see no point in responding further on this one. You are utterly convinced I should have snow tyres, I see them as wholly inappropriate for my circumstances. We are not going to convince each other.


Nicre one.

Make a ridiculous unjustifiable assertion, and then say you won't respond any more.

I would be amazed if you can find a single post by anybody which fits what you say abouy "you" (not that you give any indication of who "you" might be).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I've finally got my winter wheels & their tyres back from my ex. so I'll certainly be using them early next year when I go Toofy Grin I've got snowchains too - and can put them on (whilst the car is stationary on the drive at least!!). I will be taking kneelers and gloves etc. though - and my reflective tabard!! Not forgetting, hazard warning triangle, first aid kit, spare bulbs, etc. Oh yes, and the kitchen sink Laughing
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Megamum, don't forget, headlamp beam deflectors and GB sticker, V50 (logbook/proof of ownership) Insurance certificate, the list get's longer every year Toofy Grin
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Megamum, don't forget the spade to dig car out at the end of the week. and a campstove and fuel to make soup/tea for when you're stuck in the blizzard, and to heat the water for that kitchen sink so you can wash up afterwards Wink oh and a screwdriver so you can change those spare bulbs (bin dair dun dat) Wink
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
peura wrote:
achilles wrote:
You are utterly convinced I should have snow tyres, I see them as wholly inappropriate for my circumstances. We are not going to convince each other.
Not really Little Angel. I'm just utterly convinced that I would want to have winter tyres if I was doing what you are. I really can't see any downsides to using properly selected winter tyres. I'm only trying to provide information to help with this selection, based on what I've found out.
Actually on second thoughts I will sharpen this slightly. I'm convinced that properly selected winter tyres are correct for me, here in this country.
I also can't help comparing at the response of the Austrian authorities to their equivalent of the M11 problems we had a few years ago with ours following said M11 problems. Then I read about accidents on black ice here and from comparing how my cars felt on snow and ice before I tried winter tyres with afterwards wonder whether or not winter tyres would have made a difference.
The choice is yours though.
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andy,Spade is in the rucksack along with the tranceiver and other offpiste gear, the screwdriver too. Don't really like tea though. Embarassed
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Embarassed Embarassed You're looking at somewhere here that regularly carries a shovel in the UK if the S word is part of the weather forcast Embarassed Embarassed
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Dypcdiver wrote:
andy,Spade is in the rucksack along with the tranceiver and other offpiste gear, the screwdriver too. Don't really like tea though. Embarassed


I've actually driven through a valley on a small Austrian country road after a massive dump of snow. Most roads around it were closed because of avalanche risk. It was still snowing, I looked up saw the massive overhangs of snow and switched my transciever on. Only got so far until getting stuck and had to dig the car's front wheels out with my spade.
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I must admit I somewhat worry having to drive on snow. The worst I ever drove on was, believe it or not, in the UK. I was collecting my two young kids from their day care nursery about 6pm at night, and it started to dump it down as I left work. I had 3 miles to the nursery and then about 10 mins whilst I collected them - the nursery was out in the sticks. I had to drive home in the pitch dark - the only car on the road it seemed down a country lane for about 3 miles before I hit a road with more cars on it where things were clearer. I made all the fresh tracks in the snow and was amazed at how difficult it was to see the edge of the road, and the ditch!! The lights were hopeless as they reflected off the falling snow, also I just had standard tyres on at the time as it was before I started skiing - I've rarely been so glad to get to a busy road, esp. as I had the two small children in their seats in the car with me to worry about too.

Has anyone got any tips if I actually have to drive over any quantity of snow. I progressed OK in the above scenario, but it was rather concerning - is there anything that I could have/should have been doing that I may not have been. I've done skid pans etc. with the IAM, but the snow wasn't immediately slippery from what I could see.
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alex_heney wrote:
.........Make a ridiculous unjustifiable assertion, and then say you won't respond any more....



Love you too XX Very Happy


peura wrote:
...The choice is yours though....

wink

Oh, I know I said I wouldn't respond further - but I couldn't resist. Laughing
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achilles, well it is Smile . A more extreme example would be you can chose to put your hand in a fire, I'd advise you not to but [...quote]The choices is yours though...[/quote]Anyway over night, how sad you will think, I've been remembering my first trip to the Alps - Switzerland. First impressions were how the chap who picked us up from the train station drove straight up the hill to the hotel on snow/ice at the same speed I would if the road was dry. No snow chains needed. And then later watching worriedly as the snow moving equipment (equipped with snow chains) skidded on bare/dry road towards cars (which had had to stop suddenly) and pedestrians (including us) It's snow chains unable to grip on a road without something to dig into, and yet everyone would say it wasn't worth them removing the chains because soon they will be in deep snow again.
It wasn't until I went to Sweden I realised how much they depended on snow/winter tyres to carry on driving as normal. There a coach we were in had to do an emergency stop from 90/100km/h when a moose wandered onto the road from the woods. I think if we'd been in a British coach without winter tyres you'd have been reading about us on the news as "Britons hurt in coach accident".
Obviously we don't get the winters they do but I thought I'd look into them as every year I've had to drive the snow and ice in this country. Were there tyres that could increase my grip in snow/ice but without much compromise in grip in wet/dry conditions? I think I'd found some and interesting they were not only cheaper than the tyre I used to use but they also made me feel a lot more confident when driving though standing water at the side of the road (a condition that occurs a lot in Wales) and in the wet generally. They've also extracted me from some very muddy fields in which most 2wd cars were needing tractors - they did fail once but then so did some 4wds. Their grip on snow has been a revelation to me. I just have to remember to brake really carefully when driving on snow. Not because I might skid out of control (I've not yet dared to brake hard enough on compacted snow to make those tyres skid given I don't have a "test site" Smile) but because if anyone was following me they will likely take twice as long to stop. How much extra it might cost me was a concern so I made some notes. As I've said before the only cost is that of the additional steel wheels which was £40 from a scrapyard. Otherwise as Dypcdiver said it's just cashflow.
Anyway that explains which world (in relation to snow tyres) I live in perhaps more thoroughly than before, not that I'm expecting you to respond snowHead.

Boris, any joy yet? Is it the 16" wheels you have? If so where did you get the steels from?
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This is a Range Rover with standard fit Mud & Snow Tyres, trying to drive on wet grass/mud. Standard All Seasons are useless, even if they do have an M&S rating, might as well be Marks & Spencer. Laughing
http://uk.youtube.com/v/3ShJZnH3flQ
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Spyderman, I don't think the driver had the right button's pressed! Toofy Grin
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Boredsurfing, Must be an ML driver on a test drive. Laughing
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Spyderman, Laughing Did I mention I found another button the other day! Laughing
and since it had it's first service the n/s side mirror automatically tilts down when you select reverse Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Spyderman Laughing, those where the sort of conditions. I only needed a push once, even though I'd had to stop a few times to let other people in. Most of the other 2wds were pushed all the way out so there was some advantage over pure car (not 4x4) summer tyres. Can't really justify a 4x4 though given the number of times I drive in those conditions However, a one of cost of "only" £40 for rims with a "cash advance" for winter tyres - works for me Very Happy . This time could cost a bit more though and the "cash advance" will be larger too.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
peura, yes 16" wheels. Am most likely just going to fit All Season tyres as the best compromise.

Joy of joys - my insurance renewal for Churchill came through today Cool Will I be renewing Ohhhhhhhhh No*










* Unless they are still the cheapest rolling eyes
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I wish I still had my old car. A Peugeot 306 with standard summer tyres and front wheel drive. 3 times I've been in really slippery conditions in it and each time it did brilliantly well. One was when there was freezing rain and my road (a steep hill) was covered in ice. I watched tens of cars trying to get up the road and giving up before I foolishly tried myself. No problems at all. Second time I was driving from Liverpool to Leeds and it started snowing. By the time I was going over the Pennines there was 6+ inches. The motorway had completely emptied by that time so I tried an emergency stop and couldn't really tell the difference from a dry road. Tried some cornering and there was a bit of oversteer but nothing hairy. I guess fresh snow is actually quite sticky. Third time was coming out of Glastonbury where I passed a 4X4 stuck in the mud on a hill.

Of course if I was intentionally driving in these sort of conditions I'd get some winter tyres or chains or both. I certainly wouldn't drive up a winding mountain pass in snow without some.

Then some idiot drove into the side of me and totalled it.
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olster wrote:
Then some idiot drove into the side of me and totalled it.

Which rather neatly points out that no matter what steps you take to make the right choices for your car & driving situation there's always someone else on the road that hasn't. Confused
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FenlandSkier wrote:
olster wrote:
Then some idiot drove into the side of me and totalled it.

Which rather neatly points out that no matter what steps you take to make the right choices for your car & driving situation there's always someone else on the road that hasn't. Confused


Hopefully there will be less of them in Austria though as the police now have the powers to stop them.
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DB, well, we know there's one less dangerous driver. Shocked
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Boris, that's good timing. Just maybe it might focus their minds Laughing . but on the other hand...
As to the tyres, any of those near the top of DB's list should be good. In fact some seem almost as good, as least on snow but maybe not on ice, as some of the less good winter tyres they we can get in this country.
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Have followed the majority of this debate and decided to find out a bit more for myself......and the third google result was this:

http://www.churchill.com/motor/winter-tyres.htm Puzzled

Good advice indeed from who else but Churchill!
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landbeach, brilliant. Simply brilliant.

PS welcome to snowHead
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achilles wrote:
achilles wrote:
Have sent the following to the AA:

On your site, under Motoring Advice, 'Chains and Winter Tyres Requirements in the main winter resorts' you advise winter tyres are not mandatory in the EU, except in Finland. A friend advises that a large sign requires winter tyres to be fitted if you want to drive on the autoroutes around Aosta between October 15 and April 15. I suggest you check your web page advice, and amend it if my friend's advice is correct.

I'll post the outcome, if any, here.


Have received the following:

Quote:
Your email has been logged against the above Service Request Number.

I have forwarded your email to the relevant department, we will contact you directly one I have received a reply.

If you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,


Latest:

Quote:
Thank you for your comments we do appreciate feedback.

The information on our website is based on a survey of all appropriate motoring clubs across Europe asking them specifically to confirm the requirements for visitors as compared to residents.

We will check again and update the advice on our site if necessary
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Welcome to snowHead landbeach. Oh yes, good find rolling eyes Smile. Perhaps it's time they introduced their left hand to their right hand. I'm glad Boris has started this thread because prior to phoning my own insurer I'd tried to find out which insurers were supportive of winter tyres. Although I didn't come across Churchill whilst I was going this, if I had done then I would have concluded than they approved of them. The truth seems more complicated (ATM)
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landbeach, brilliant Cool Laughing Oh and welcome to snowHead

I might send that to the monkeys on the Helpdesk and see what they say
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