 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
So, my ski's have been stored for a few months but were not serviced at the end of the season. They have a few nicks and blemish's in the bases and the edges probably need sorting. I have a choice of shops but I'd like to know how I can tell if I've had a really good service and what are the short cuts that I should look out for if any ? Also how do I choose an edge angle ? Should I expect to be asked in the shop (This has not happened yet but I'm aware it can be varied for grip etc).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Minor base nicks & blemishes don't need a base grind which is what most shops will do & is unnecessary most of the time. Ask for base edge nicks to be dressed down by hand with no grind. Post your make/model of skis & I'll tell you what the factory angles are but most UK store's have a standard machine set-up which they won't usually alter despite advertising to the contrary. Biggest no-no's I see all the time is the non removal of the hanging burr after the side edge has been machined & tip'n'tail detuning.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
spyderjon,
So are you saying don't de-tune tip'n'tail (carvers) 
Serious Q BTW
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
spyderjon, I have Volkl Superspeeds
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Kel, yep.
With modern carving skis there’s no longer any need to detune the tips & tails of the ski. Detuned skis won’t hold the described turning arc as the ski will stay in a flat profile. With proper bevel, footbeds & knee alignment your skis will perform better if sharp the entire running length. Afterall you've paid for the full length of ski so why not use it 
If you do find your skis a bit too ‘hooky’, rather than detuning the end 100/200mm of the tip which was common on old straight skis it’s better to slightly increase the base edge angle over about 50mm around the contact point at the tip. This is the point were base & side edge angles meet the snow together. This additional base edge angle allows the edge to engage more progressively but will still give full length sharpness once the ski has been tipped.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
spyderjon,
Thank's was always unsure due to conflicting advice, which proves your point. So I kind of half de-tuned as a compromise if you know what I mean. From now on no more de-tuning as you are the authority on ski tuning on here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Frosty wrote: |
| spyderjon, I have Volkl Superspeeds |
The Volkl factory tune is 1,2 (1 degree base edge angle & 2 degrees side edge angle) so that's what you should ask for to retain that. Most of the S&R and EB store's have their machines set up for those angles. I was taught by an ex Volkl WC tech who recommends a 3 degree side edge on all skis but that's only practical if you go the DIY route as it's rare to find a shop that offers that. Interestingly many European resort shops have machines set to 0 degrees which gives crap edge hold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kel, unfortunately many UK stores still routinely detune new skis upon delivery when they're mounting the bindings etc.
Most of the UK stores will proudly tell you of the training programmes that their techs undergo but the truth is that the staff are only trained to operate their machines but receive little training in the basic fundementals as to what consistute a good tune etc.
One of my customers recently bought a new pair of skis from a major UK chain store & asked the tech to trim back the sidewalls so he easily maintain the edges himself & the tech didn't know what he was talking about. Upon explanation he was told that DIY tuning would void the warranty on the skis & that only a shop should service them 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Interestingly many European resort shops have machines set to 0 degrees which gives crap edge hold.
|
spyderjon, Thanks, I'm grateful for the advice. I will probably have my ski's serviced in Switzerland and this is really useful info. How much difference will I feel between 2 and 3 degrees ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
spyderjon,
Thought I would share this with you. I was in my local outdoor store who organizes a trip I go on every year, earlier this year. One of the boarders who goes on the trip came in and was telling me and the owner of the shop about his 3 week trip to Colorado. He told us he had his board base ground, waxed and edged as it only cost $20 in Colorado, so he had it done every 3 days !!. I said is there anything left of your board and the owner looked at him in disbelief and probably sold him a new board when I left.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Frosty, depends on the snow conditions & the skis. In soft snow & powder if don't make a difference but on hard the snow the extra grip will usuably be more noticable the greater the torsional stiffness of the ski. Saying that putting a 3 degree edge a ski like a Rossi B2 (factory 1 degree side edge & not great torsional stiffness) will tranform the ski on hardpack. The Superspeed is a pretty stiff piste ski with high torsional stiffness which gives it an inherently high level of edge hold as standard.
If you gonna have shop tunes I'd stick to 2 degrees but if you're a DIY'er I'd recommend a 3 as there's plenty of benefits with no downsides.
BTW, all Atomic's are shipped 1,3 as are most Fischer's, with both makes having great reputations togood edge hold. The downside of a 3 degree factory set-up, & the reason why Volkl don't ship their skis with a 3 is (according to the Volkl guy that taught me) that few stores have their machines set-up that way to maintain them like that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
spyderjon, Great, thanks for your advice. I may still ask the local shop if they can do 3 degree's, I'm curious to experience the difference 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
sorry to hijack the thread guys but does anyone know what snow and rocks servicing/waxing is like? i live near manhester and off the top of my head its the only place close that i can go to to get it done, any ideas? im using atomic metron 11's at the moment but i did really hammer them last season so they do need some attention
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
sabraham, I would take your skis to Anything technical in kendal http://www.skiequipmentuk.com/workshop.shtml if my shop in Harrogate is to far from Manchester . Andy that runs Anything Techincal trains technicans for a lot of shops in the uk and will do a first rate job. As the previous posts most shops will not change set up on machines for edge angles, we here at white stone always finish edges by hand (all finshing is done by hand) and to factory sets if the customer does not say otherwise .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Frosty, I bought a 3 degree guide from spyderjon and changed my B2s to it. A revelation to say the least. In the past whenever I attempted to get the skis over on hard icey runs the ends seemed to chatter and slide out of the turns. I found that the new angle bit in and ran true to the line, you did have to be a little more precise though as the first few days the rate of turn took me a little by suprise. It's pretty easy to spend 5 mins and run a fine diamond stone over the edges with a guide before you put the skis away each day... keeps them nice and sharp.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
sabraham,
I bought some Ex demo pool (brand new really) Rossi's for my wife from the CFe store, they machined waxed them for me before I took them. Don't know what the process is but it took less than 5 mins, so I guess it not a proper hot wax, which is what I will be giving them before we go away for New Year.
This is the service you will receive in store, the wax they sell for you to take away and do a proper hot wax is TOYO.
BTW all this 3 degrees business is way over my head, I thought you were going on about the Tamla Motown band from the 60s/70s 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
sabraham, There is also an Ellis Brigham in manchester (near the Science museum) though I couldn't say if their servicing was any better than S&R
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
spyderjon, i am coming around to the idea that 3 degree is better in a lot of ways to 2 but would think that the more angle you put on the quicker they will dull or be damaged.
I could be talkeing out my *ss on this but would like to hear your views. (i put a 3 degree on my SL skis over the weekend and will give em a go tonight  )
do the shops like EB S&R etc have machines that can stone grind the bases or do they typically just do a belt sand? ps what can you do?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
spyderjon,
So whats the factory edge angles on Movement skis (the Climax in particlular) as I've just had a set delivered.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
had a go on my new 3 degree and definately noticed a difference. we did a lot of one legged stuff tonight and the skis were grippier and wanted to track better edging back up hill. a convert 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, myself & many other race techs say a 3 won't dull any quicker than a 1 or 2 & the ex Volkl WC tech that taught me recommends a 3 on everything, whatever the purpose of the ski. The only person I've come across who says a 3 dulls quicker is veeeight. Atomic & Fischer ship their skis with a 3 & as I used to ski on Atomic's I've always stuck with a 3. The trick to a longer lasting edge is more to do with how smooth it is to start with (ie multiple grades of diamond stones with a good cutting fluid) as opposed to that actual angle as any striations left from filing or coarse stoning will soon burr over.
Not all shops have stone grinding machines with many using a belt sander. I have personal knowledge of only a few shops but EB's at MK definately had a stone grinder last season because I put a pair of my own skis through it but they've re-jgged their workshop since then & I haven't been in since. Other stores with grinders that i've used are Ski Barlett, Lockwoods and S&R at Sheffield. I have access to a very well maintain grinder that I dress the stone for myself & that's what I use but I need the skis for at least a week to turn them round. I've also been playing with a very good base sander fitted with a special diamond belt from Moonflex that's designed to impact structure & the results have been excellent. I'm about to submit a planning application which successful will mean I'll get my own machine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
spyderjon, thanks for that. I think i will convert my piste skis over but probably leave the tele karmas at 2 deg. i can see your point that if they are sharpened well to begin with like a good knife at home they will need only regular "dressing" and not much between 2 or 3 degrees.
My fischers have so little base left i may have to skip the base grind but good to know you can do it if required. wow planning permission business must be booming with all those new gadgets you are investing in 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
spyderjon,
Cheers for the info,
I have the Movement skis and Fischer telemark and touring skis. What tool or tools would you recommend from your stock ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Horsley, I've PM'd you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Lots of good useful info here, thanks for that.
Can i fire a quick couple of questions to you.
• what preperation, if any, do i need to have done on a brand new pair of skis? the skis are still in the original packing so haven't had anything done to them since they left the factory.
• what are the edge angles of K2 skis (xplorer) from the factory? [edited - sorry, just looked at your link above and see that they are 1&2]
New question
• Should i get the angles changed to 1&3 before skiing them, or wait until they need serviced?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
thought you'd sold them
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
couldn't bring myself to do it!!!! i must have a week mind.
i'm gonna sell the other ones instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I changed my volkl to 3deg and it siutied my ski style so I have done it to my recon's and have not looked back.
sabraham, If your the south-west side check the link in my sig.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
anyone recommend a top ski tuner in the edinburgh area?
anyone used freeze?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| shoogly wrote: |
Lots of good useful info here, thanks for that.
Can i fire a quick couple of questions to you.
• what preperation, if any, do i need to have done on a brand new pair of skis? the skis are still in the original packing so haven't had anything done to them since they left the factory.....
• Should i get the angles changed to 1&3 before skiing them, or wait until they need serviced? |
The factory wax is really just a transit coating & will ski off very quickly plus the base will have a dirt/emulsifier content from the manufacturing process & grind etc. For top end performance, durability & protection it's recommended to give the bases a hot scrape clean & then a hot wax. The more wax applications the better & if you start with a pucka base prep wax then that's even better still. However if you did nowt & just skied 'em you ain't gonna ruin 'em, although they'd need a hot wax pretty quickly.
I'd ski the angles as shipped & see how you like them as you can alter the side edge angle anytime. K2's usually need their sidewall's trimming back to enable you to tune the side edge at 2 degrees but this is a must to be allow a 3 degree to be set.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Just buy a new pair.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
howdy,
i think i'll probably put my skis into blues in edinburgh to get a hot wax before using them. one thing though, you said earlier about how modern skis don't need detuned at tip or tail. However, i took this from the Blues website.
"A ski or board that has been correctly serviced should have a flat even surface with smooth edges, deburred and de-tuned at tip and tail."
Is it worth me asking them not to bother detuning them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
shoogly, I probably wouldn't (detune ) until you are out on the snow... and then see if the tips or tails 'catch'..if they do...run a coin about down the offending part...maybe 100mm or so. If they don't, then don't touch them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
shoogly, don't let the store detune them. The fact that they're saying that a ski/board should be flat shows that tey're out of touch as many fat skis & low radius carvers do have have some concavity these days, especially in the tips'n'tails.
Ski them first &, after a good few runs to get used to them, if they still feel 'hooky' it's better to get a local tech to add a tad more base edge angle over 25mm either side of the contact points rather than detuning them. This will allow the edge to engage more progressively but still give a full length edge. Once detuned it's a lot of work to get the edge back if required. Also remember to assess the tips & tails seperately as to their need, whereas store's will automatically detune both ends of the ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| shoogly wrote: |
anyone used freeze? |
Don't trust them myself as they mounted my bindings in the wrong place! Don't know what their servicing is like though. Probably no worse than blues. I think snowlines are possibly your best bet in Edinburgh.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ChrisWo, yes, a lot of tuning will wear the edges, but if you're not completely cavalier about it then you don't need to worry. I sharpen my dry-slope slalom skis I would guess on average 3 times a week (probably 5 if there's a race on at the weekend), and I find a pair of skis lasts about 9 months. So that's going to be something of the order of 100 tunes before the edges give out. So for a normal piste ski for even a moderately keen skier, the ski will die well before the edges go. If you take them to a shop though, they are going to take off way more, so you'll only get a fraction of that if you let a shop do it. Yes, get an edge guide, file and stone and do it yourself - and never let a shop touch your edges. Unless you're racing you shouldn't need to do your edges every night, although a touch up with a diamond stone is probably worth it - and you'd probably be able to do that every night for a full year before you started running out of edge.
Off-piste your edges are going to get a fair few dings though, so don't be too precious about trying to keep a razor edge if you're doing a lot of off-piste - as if you do you'll probably go through a set of edges in about 3 weeks. Super-clean sharp edges are not really that necessary there anyway - off-piste-oriented skis are never going to be the best at carving turns on icy pistes even with the sharpest edge you can get on it - so provided you've got some somewhere along the edge, then you'll be fine.
For an edge guide, though, get yourself one of the fixed angle jobs (that look like a piece of angle iron) as these keep a precise angle: I previously got a SkiMan variable angle holder with rollers that ran alonge the base, and the angle wobbled all over the place (not because of the variable adjustment but because the rollers didn't make a good connection with the base) - resulting in the edges going maybe twice as quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
GrahamN, I agree... for off piste (and on at my level) I run a couple of diamond stones over the edges every couple of days and smooth down the big dings with a stone... that keeps them pretty sharp without too much effort. I only do a major effort once every few trips or if I want to change an angle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ta for the advice - think I'll ask Santa for some edging kit for Christmas
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
) - does edging a ski wear away your edges significantly?
