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Cairngorm mountain railway could cost taxpayers £50 million

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The financial mess that is the Cairngorm mountain railway could end up costing taxpayers a massive £50 million to clean up, according to internal government documents obtained by the Sunday Herald.

The growing prospect that ministers will be asked to pay the bill for dismantling and removing the controversial funicular from the mountain near Aviemore has been described as “daunting” and “scary” by Scottish government officials.

The documents also reveal how the company that ran the funicular was on the verge of going bust before it was taken over by the government agency, Highlands and Islands Enterprise (HIE), in May - and how this fact was hidden from the public by HIE at the time.

When the funicular railway was originally given planning consent in 1997, a legal condition was imposed obliging HIE to remove the entire facility and reinstate the land. This would come into force if the funicular was closed for more than two years.

Since then, as the funicular has tried to weather a series of worsening financial crises, the risk of closure has loomed ever larger. The prospect was confronted in private correspondence between HIE and the Scottish government in May this year.

HIE disclosed that it had estimated the total cost of reinstatement at between £30 and £50 million. This is much higher than the figure of £6 million previously mentioned by the government’s Forestry Commission, which had also investigated taking over the funicular.

The estimate was high, HIE explained in a memo to government, because much of the equipment might have to be carried out by helicopter in order to avoid damaging Cairngorm’s sensitive mountain habitat. Helicopters had had to be brought in during construction, causing “cost escalations”.

In an email on 1 May, one government official expressed concern about throwing “good money after bad” on the funicular. “The prospect of a £30m bill for removal is pretty scary in financial and reputational terms,” he said.

HIE has released more than 250 pages of memos and correspondence about its take-over of the funicular earlier this year. The documents were requested by the Sunday Herald under freedom of information legislation.

For the first time they uncover the full story of how close the funicular company, Cairngorm Mountain Limited (CML), came to bankruptcy. According to a confidential report to HIE from the accountants KPMG, the company was approaching a crisis last autumn.

CML had made “significant losses”, KPMG reported. “Recent balance sheets showed that CML was substantially insolvent, and that on an earnings basis, there was no prospect of that position changing.”

Because of a drop in the number of visitors, the company made a loss of £167,000 in the year to 30 April 2007, and then a further £193,000 loss between 1 May and 26 August 2007. CML’s total liabilities at the end of April 2007 stood at £6.3 million.

Allowing the company to go into insolvency “would appear to present all parties with a scenario which would be problematic in terms of potentially damaging PR, and political problems”, KPMG warned.

Despite a good skiing season last winter, the crisis at CML came to a head in the spring, so an urgent HIE take-over was proposed. An emergency meeting of CML directors on 8 May was told that the company’s bank account had been “frozen”.

The minutes of the meeting recorded: “HIE believed that failure to agree in the short term could result in the company having to go into receivership. The company and HIE want to avoid this at all costs.”

None of this was explained at the time. A draft HIE briefing advised officials to answer “no” if asked by the media whether the HIE take-over was “to avert Cairngorm funicular railway going bust”.

HIE argued last week that this was not misleading as there had been no risk of the railway itself going bust, as opposed to the company that ran it. But the government agency was still accused of “media manipulation” by Dave Morris, director of Ramblers’ Association Scotland and a veteran opponent of the funicular.

“HIE’s credibility is melting away faster than a snow bed in a Cairngorm corrie,” he said. “Government ministers must act to resolve this environmental and financial disaster at the heart of the Cairngorms National Park.”

Roy Turnbull, vice-convener of the Badenoch and Strathspey Conservation Group, added: “We and other critics of the funicular consistently argued that it was likely to be an economic disaster, as indeed it is proving.”

Source: http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2442314.0.taxpayers_face_50m_mountain_railway_bill.php
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"A draft HIE briefing advised officials to answer “no” if asked by the media whether the HIE take-over was “to avert Cairngorm funicular railway going bust”.
HIE argued last week that this was not misleading as there had been no risk of the railway itself going bust, as opposed to the company that ran it."
Shocked Shocked Shocked
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It appears to me, that the whole funicular project has been a bit of a farce from the start. It gets skiers up the hill in winter, so serves it's purpose there, but the restrictions on the summer that prevent walkers from using it mean that a vital source of revenue cannot be tapped into. I know that this year you can ride down if you have walked up, but at the prices they charge I doubt they get too much business there.
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All anyone needed to do was to look at CMLs published accounts to see the company was insolvent - this can come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who has followed things over the last few years. What is a surprise is that it appears HIE are happy to leave the very board that has effectively run the company into the ground in place rather than insisting that a new one take over. An honourable mention to Bob Kinnaird though, I think he has done his best in very difficult times in the last little while but was given a very difficult legacy and saddled with many of the eejits who helped create that legacy as his bosses!

It should be underlined that although there have been lean seasons in the last few years this mess cannot be simply explained away as the result of climate change. As intimated in the article there were many who predicted the funicular would be a white elephant given the amount of money that it cost and the liabilities it brought to the company. Start with the neeedless loss of business to the company whilst the thing was built and the old chairlift simultaneously dismantled (a decision that beggars belief IMHO) as well as long term lack of investment in other areas of the company and you'll start to get a picture of where things began to go drastically wrong.

However, it's worth noting that CML have always had one arm tied behind their backs, as Elizabeth B rightly comments, with the closed area restrictions and an inability, unlike other ski areas in Scotland (and anywhere else in the world) most notably Nevis, to use uplift effectively in the summer for mountain bikers and other potential users of the available terrain.
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roga, replacing the old chairlift with a newer one (maybe at a different angle) that could have stood up to more wind would have been a lot cheaper! OTOH a polytunnel and a travelator would have done the job too - Oh - that would be a no-no for the environentalists. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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The company was in a poor financial situation before the funicular ever opened because of years of delay, court battles and rising costs that resulted from the persistent battles waged by those who seeked and still seek to end mechanised snowsports in Scotland.

I bet many of those calling for removal of the funicular and ski area, would be up in arms when the Bulldozers start removing the ski road and high level carparks and the easy access to the high tops and climbing in the Northern Corries that it provides. There are indeed a proportion of climbers that don't like having the ski area there next to where they climb, yet that needs to be offset against the fact its the infrastructure that a ski area provides that attracts them there in the first place!

Any notion that HIE could or should spend £50m to damage a fragile rural economy is just bonkers, esp as ripping out the infrastructure would cause more environmental disruption and damage than further refurbishment and modernisation of infrastructure on the mountain (which would also cost less).
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The summer restrictions made going up the funicular a spiritless and pointless activity, since you weren't allowed to leave the building. Given that handicap they shouldn't have built it.
A re-siting or upgrade of the chairlift would have made much more sense.
What will they do if they take out the funicular - buy a new chairlift? Or close the whole area? The whole thing is bonkers.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:
When the railway was originally given planning consent in 1997, a legal condition was imposed obliging HIE to remove the entire facility and reinstate the land if the funicular was closed for more than two years.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were some way to imprison public officials who accept unreasonable risk for public money - after reimbursing all they can to the public purse from their own pockets. Might concentrate minds - and at least the public would have vengeance. Could be quite therapeutic. Madeye-Smiley
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achilles, Interestingly one of the original Architects of Aviemore John Poulson was sent to prison for 5 years for corruption.

"Another productive contact was Scottish Office civil servant George Pottinger, who in the late 1950s was put in charge of a £3 million redevelopment of Aviemore as a winter sports complex. Poulson gave Pottinger gifts worth over £30,000 over six years, and was appointed by Pottinger as architect in charge of the Aviemore project. Pottinger also had a degree of political knowledge and skill which Poulson lacked and drafted political speeches for the architect."
Wikipedia
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Gosh - a blast from the past. I remember the names Pottinger and Poulson, but didn't know that this was the wider scenario. whoever is to blame, it sounds a very sad saga, with worse to come. The Cairngorms deserve better.
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Hats off to the planner who foresaw the possibility of having a rusting white elephant on the Cairngorm hillside for the next 100 years.
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I've re-read over some of the press coverage and it's just got things completely back to front (perhaps conveniently so?). The article suggests that the transfer of CML into Public Ownership was a panic move done in the space of a week because the bank was going to place CML in receivership.

The move had been under discussion and planning for at least 18months as I understand it.

The 'freeze' of the bank account was a reduction of the overdraft facility to take account of profitable trading during the 2008 season and was a pre-requisite for the change of ownership happening. Basically the 'freeze' didn't cause the HIE takeover, it was part of process of bringing the change of ownership to completion.

Those who ask why wasn't a new chairlift built miss an important point about HIE's motivation for this project at the time, it wasn't about ski infrustructure, it was for a wider tourism project that would be a focus for the wider Strathspey area, that would be seen to start the reverse of decline in the Strath and help kick start other major regeneration projects, notably the Aviemore Centre.

It was also clear at the time that a Gondola or Cable Car would not have got planning permission all the way to to the Ptarmigan because a lot of very high towers would have been needed to crest the ridge on the sky line following the chairlift route. A large tract of funding that was made available also had a requirement for access to people of all abilities, the elderly, infirm, wheelchair bound etc that simply could not have been met by a chairlift.

Yes lift technology exists now that could deal with some of these issues, combined detach chairs and gondolas, funitels for wind stability, but these were not available at time of planning. It's worth remembering that the Funicular was supposed to have opened in 1995 - that it was 7 years late due to all the legal disputes is why the operating company became as indebted as it did.
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jbob wrote:
Hats off to the planner who foresaw the possibility of having a rusting white elephant on the Cairngorm hillside for the next 100 years.


Quite frankly some of the comments that get made on here and other sites objecting to infrastructure on Scottish Mountains from people who jet off to the Alps for their week in the snow is just ignorant and hypocritical.
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You know it makes sense.
Having just got back from holiday based around Aviemore I have to say that it is looking much better managed than the last time I was there two years ago. Unfortunately I missed out on the great skiing this season but I did notice all sorts of improvements for the better. Cairngorm itself looks much better managed and felt more purposeful.

Aviemore and Strathspey is simply a fantastic area and well worth a visit if you haven't been before. We had great weather and saw, Ospreys eagles, deer, wild goats, red squirrels and even a snake !

Cycling and walking is omnipresent and everywhere there is new and improved infrastructre. Miles of new and improved off road family cycling routes are being been put in and will open up miles of new cross country skiing. The extended path above the Craigellachie national Nature reserve, immediately behind the youth hostel has a breathtaking view from the summit. The technical biking trails at Laggan (Wolftrax) are the best I've ever used.

Whilst the funicular was never really going to be the most effective lift for skiers, I hope that now it is in reliable use it will continue to provide a fulcrum for the continued appropriate use of the whole of Speyside.
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Winterhighland, Hypocritical I will put my hand up to, ignorant I wont. I Started skiing at Aviemore in 1971 and did so regularly for a further 15 years, I have no objection to the infrastructure, subject to it not wrecking the very thing that people come to enjoy.

Funding with funny money and permitting a train to be built that couldn't be used by walkers and cyclists was a mistake, every low level resort in the world is facing the same problem and the main solution has been mountain biking and walking, so to build a train up a mountain that relied for its long term viability on just skiers was stupid. The person who had the foresight to require some one to take responsibility if things didnt go to plan, as was pretty certain, did their job. What would be the alternative, allow the project to go bust and remain an eyesore, or ignore the environmental impacts and lift all the restrictions that were thought necessary in the first place and accepted at the time by the developers.

I think its very sad that the whole of the Scottish ski industry is facing a crisis due to climate change but good money after bad, and ignoring the impact of large scale engineering work in fragile environments wont solve the problem.
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Winterhighland, Surely the biggest problem with the old chairs were that they were difficult to access (impossible for wheechair users), and ran at 90 degs to the prevailing wind. I've lost count of the number of times I just got a beginner class up to the Ptarmigan and had to come straight back down again because the siren went. Sad I'm sure that things could have been done to replace the lifts as they were without going in for the funicular. OTOH, the powers that be at the time should never have agreed to the idea that if you go up in the funicular you can't leave the building - that is seriously ridiculous. Evil or Very Mad There must be lots of people like me that for one reason or another can't go up during the season, but wouldn't mind a little stroll on the skis in May ... Not bl**dy walking all the way from the car park though! Shocked
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Seems to me that the Scottish government has decide whether it wants a tourist industry in the area or not. If it doesn't it would be a smart move to introduce legislation allowing for cheaper (or non) disposal of the funicular. If it does want tourism, then it should allow a change to summer use to allow passengers free movement from the top. Whichever way it goes, it needs to have a tighter grip n the planning process for the future (as does the rest of the UK).
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jbob, on reading your reply I realise I miss-understood your original post. Embarassed

Quote:
I'm sure that things could have been done to replace the lifts as they were without going in for the funicular.


There was only one option on the table that there was funding available for. I'll have a look later if get a chance in the HIE FOI Reading Room on their website (www.hie.co.uk) for the HIE document which considered the application and the options available, but it quite clearly expressed the view that there were only two viable ways forward:

1. Build a Funicular Railway
2. Do Nothing.

To put the Funicular's performance into perspective, in summer 2000 the White Lady Chairlift carried only 13,000 visitors to the Ptarmigan. In the first year of the Funicular that figure rose to 165,000 non skiing visitors taken to the Ptarmigan.

For HIE the Funicular largely achieved it's objectives, helping turn around the direction of tourism in the Strath and acting as a Catalyst to redevelopment in Aviemore itself. The fact that CML was insolvent isn't proof that the Funicular was a failure, in fact the fact that CML continued trading at all is surely in some ways proof that the Funicular is indeed a successful component of the business on the mountain. CML was massively indebted for years and this was down to a combination of delays in the Funicular project and management in the 90s.
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easiski wrote:
OTOH, the powers that be at the time should never have agreed to the idea that if you go up in the funicular you can't leave the building - that is seriously ridiculous. Evil or Very Mad There must be lots of people like me that for one reason or another can't go up during the season, but wouldn't mind a little stroll on the skis in May


Does anyone know why the restirction on summer use was put in place - I'll admit to not being familiar with the geography?
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 brian
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bertie bassett, to cut down the environmental damage of too many feet tramping about the Cairngorm plateau.
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The environmentalists , like the great crested newt, should be trampled on. They have thousands more acres to walk in perfect natural basic bog and stone. They are dogs in the manger.
And the railway is there. All that needs to be changed is the stupid stupid stupid restriction on usage in the summer.
And ,from the above figures, if it's only losing roughly £200 thousand a year it would take 150 years to reach £30 million ,so why pull it down. It is a positive contribution to the Scottish Economy and the Scottish Government should supportit. The increased usage figures show that it is providing what THE PEOPLE want, not what some introverted narrow visioned fuddy duddy theoretical environmentalists want. Is there a Scotsman strong enough to say this ?
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brian, that was my understanding, although recent statements suggest that they have concerns about too many ill equipped people being let loose in the mountains.
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The Cairngorm plateau is a quite unique, in the UK, sub-arctic environment and I don't think glib dismissals of environmental concerns add to any debate. I for one would be horrified if there was invasive development of the sort seen in the Alps in this area and I think there are many who voice legitimate concerns about this fragile environment and the impact that unimpeded access might have. However I personally think that it should be accepted that damage has been done in the past in the ski area and there's no way the company (CML) can control or make good the damage without being able to return some sort of profit. IMHO managed access for mountain biking for example in the summer might help to raise revenues to allow other parts of the mountain to be restored.

The problem that has prevailed for as long as I can remember though, (since the first Lurchers Gulley enquiry I guess) and probably longer, is that there has existed in Scotland an influential (probably more so nowadays) lobby that takes a quite fundamentalist view of any development in the mountains. It includes elements of the mountaineering and walking organisations (although not necessarily a majority) as well as some environmentalists. In my experience these people have a visceral hatred of all the ski areas and associated developments and would like to see them all closed down and removed, it has been CML's misfortune to be the main focus of their ire given the ski area's proximity to the sub-arctic plateau and other areas in which they like to walk and climb. Here however is the rub, and the hypocrisy, they themselves cause damage to this environment, particularly in summer when there is no snow to protect the ground, by tramping all over the place.

Take the case of Stac Pollaidh in the West Highlands, a smaller mountain than Cairngorm and it's neighbours and admittedly less unique as a habitat although no less special. Here the feet of thousands of walkers on this 'undeveloped' mountain have caused massive damage:
Quote:
Stac Pollaidh is now recognised as one of the five most eroded mountains in Scotland and the combination of 30,000 pairs of tramping boots a year and the natural forces of wind and water has gullied, corroded and damaged plant eco-systems over a large area of the hill

Original source here

As a result proposals were put together to limit damage by building more durable paths up the mountain which have now been built and are apparently proving successful in halting further damage. However, whilst up in nearby Ullapool last week I was told by a couple of people that some hard core climbers were against these proposals supposedly because it would limit their right to roam the mountain and create an 'artificial' route to the summit. Somewhat ironic given the attitude of some, perhaps the same, people to access into the Cairngorms.

There's a lot of hypocrisy in the whole debate and unfortunately in half a century no balance has been found that keeps all parties relatively happy but the fact is that the ski areas account for a tiny proportion of the mountains of Scotland and the debate now should really be about how to secure the best and most sustainable future for all mountain users rather than being about a small group of fundamentalists who have a half-century old axe to grind.

Of course the real answer is to keep the closed system and keep the 'cake hunters' inside the Ptarmigan and reinstate and extend the Ciste chairs and allow open acess that way. With that system in place those hardy enough to sit on a chairlift all the way up to the top would be able to roam about and the majority would be kept within the confines of the top station Twisted Evil Toofy Grin
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roga wrote:
Of course the real answer is to keep the closed system and keep the 'cake hunters' inside the Ptarmigan and reinstate and extend the Ciste chairs and allow open acess that way. With that system in place those hardy enough to sit on a chairlift all the way up to the top would be able to roam about and the majority would be kept within the confines of the top station Twisted Evil Toofy Grin


Not a bad idea, except I'm not sure that the increased costs would be covered. Glencoe, The Lecht and Glenshee run chair lifts during the summer, but whenever I've been near, I've not got the impression that they have been that busy.

What I think would be more viable is something along the lines of the Nevis chair, where (if I understand it correctly) they run it early morning for mountaineers, and you have to be carrying equipment to be allowed on. Why not run a 7am and 7.30am funicular, where if you have rucksack containing outdoor gear you are allowed out at the top? Those serious about walking would benefit, while day trippers who just want to see the views would probably still be in bed!!
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With regards to the Closed System, it is in winter this situation gets really farcical. Funicular visitors can go out of the Ptarmigan when snowsports operations are underway, however you are not allowed on the funicular with any kind of mountaineering gear (due to the VMP). The de facto situation is effectively that you may use the funicular to access the Summit and Plateau in Winter, providing you are not equipped to do so.

There have already been slow changes made to the Closed System to remove the most crazy parts, initially walkers who were on the mountain were not allowed to enter the Ptarmigan even so much as to use the toilets. Firstly the system was opened from the outside, so those who got up the mountain under their own steam could use the facilities in the Ptarmigan. Last year there was a further change to allow down only travel on the funicular, so now the system is open from the outside and only closed from the inside in Summer.

The next logical step that really has no case against it is to move to a fully open and unrestricted system in winter. It's a complete farce that ski tourers and climbers can't use the Funicular to gain access to higher levels were snow is offering protection to the ground, so they have to trample over lower level open ground that may not be as well protected by a winter blanket.

A note about Ski Touring. The Section 50 agreement and the VMP currently forbid use of the Funicular to access the Plateau or the EU protected sites in the Northern Corries that lie west of Coire Cas. However a Section 50 agreement can not be retrospective, thus the restriction applies only to the Funicular. It is there for allowed under the regime that a ticket holder may take the Funicular up the mountain, ski over to the Ptarmigan Tow and use the Ptarmigan Tow as the point of access to the Plateau. Thus if you ski at CairnGorm a fair bit and like to tour, all the more reason to get a season ticket.

Also as mentioned above the Ciste Chairs can carry anyone at any time of year if CML had the will to use them. Also, there is nothing actually stopping CML introducing a "tourers ticket", valid for one return travel on the Funicular and one uplift on the Ptarmigan Tow! Maybe there is a case for reintroducing the old punchcards alongside current tickets?

As for summer use and an open system, I would like to see Ranger Led walks offered from the Top Station as a first step. This would be a source of extra income, while allowing demand and potential issues to be assessed in a controlled manor. That said the requirement of the Section 50 agreement is to ensure the protected sites aren't damaged as a result of the funicular - for as long as monitoring can show that this is not the case with each slight relaxation, there is scope to take it a step further. The vast majority of people would go no further than the Ptarmigan Bowl or even the immediate vicinity of the building, in fact many wouldn't leave the building or viewing terrace.

There is a stone built path direct to the Summit that is probably one of the most over engineered foot paths in the UK, there is also an excellent longer gravel path via the Marquis Well. Providing a signed loop round this existing excellent path network would keep about 80 to 90% of the 10 to 20% of visitors who go beyond the immediate vicinity of the building on the paths and not trampling the Plateau. These paths were built to take a large number of visitors at considerable expense, it is crazy that no funicular passengers get to use them at all, not even as guided walks.
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Some sensible suggestions there Alan. I've regularly toured off the train/ptarmigan tow. I only ever tour without using uplift if I'm with people who don't have a season ticket as it seems extravagant to pay £20 + to use the train and ptarmigan tow once only.
As a season ticket holder how could they enforce a ban on touring after using a lift. I always have my season ticket with me even if i don't use uplift as you never now when you might need I, even if its only for the 10% off catering. Mind you telemarker, hustler and co got the 3rd degree from the ecologist woman as they headed off on a long tour after taking the train and ptarmigan up last season. Didn't say anything to me as I headed into Ciste Mhearead, but she'd already headed off up Marquis' Well. Wonder if she walked up or came up on the train?
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Bet you any money this received EU grant aid as well:

http://www.ladepeche.fr/Installation-d-un-teleski-a-Peyragudes_di157-10.html

And we're not allowed to use touring skis from the top of the Funicular Shocked
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Peter S,

You can use touring skis, if they banned touring skis that would be half the skiers at cairngorm as most people on their own kit seem to be on tele bindings or AT bindings these days. Just make sure your ice axe and crampons are well hidden (or leave them in the car like I usually do). They haven't started searching rucsacks for skins (yet Very Happy ) though I've used my skins within the ski area on a number of occassions when for example the WW poma has been closed but there has been decent snow in the Ciste Gulley or on the West Wall.
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Peter S, strictly speaking if you step off the Funicular and put your skins on and skin up the Ptarmigan Traverse, then the Marquis Well and over the Summit onto the Plateau you are in breach of the Visitor Management Plan, the Section 50 agreement and thus the terms and conditions of your ticket, in that the Funicular maynot be used to directly access the EU protected sites.

However, if on exiting the Funicular you instead ski over to the Ptarmigan Tow and take the T-bar to the top of the Ptarmigan Traverse and then put your skins on and skin up the Marquis Well and onto the Plateau, you have not breached the VMP, the Section 50 agreement and are carrying out your tour within the terms and conditions of your (ski) ticket. A funicular or 'ski spectator' ticket prohibits the carriage of any sports equipment, be it skis, snowboards, touring kit, climbing kit etc.

There is also a mis-understanding that the VMP restricts skiers from skiing outwith the Ski Area, it doesn't. Any lift including the Funicular may be used to access areas beyond the Ski area to the East, eg Coire Loagh Mor, Coire Loagh Beag. Technically the Funicular should not be the last point of uplift for entry into Sneachda, but this would most likely be done by the Ptarmigan or Coire Cas T-bars anyway. Thus the message on the Funicular requesting "Ski Spectators to remain within the Ski Patrol Area" is for non-skiers only, it is not a restriction on those holding a Snowsports Ticket.

Confused yet? Toofy Grin
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Winterhighland,

Somebody should remind CML's ecologist of that Very Happy. I'm not sure Bob would agree with that interpretation of the VMP either, but I've never had a problem with my touring using my season pass, and unless there is full top to bottom cover, I do less damage taking the train up to the snow than trudging up by foot and ski.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
it aint re-education on the VMP that that ecologist bird needs, it's a few manners and social skills - had a run in with her near the summit one day (after having used surface lifts only all the way from car park to top of ptarmigan, and never setting foot on the train - which i tried to explain but just got screamed at!). She got an earful back but it didnt seem to have much effect. Have heard loads of similar stories from other folk. She should be confined to a lab or a mushy tunnel somewhere Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It should be pointed out that the cairngorm choo choo train is making money on a day to day basis.
But just not enough to service the debts incurred building it.
Any talk of tax payers spending £50 million to remove it by helicopter is total hot air.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap,

Its Cameron McNeish getting in another anti skiing dig via TGO and the newspaper.
barry,

Fortunatley I've not met her, but did meet telemarker hustler and co just after they'd had a run in with her - they basically just ignored her. Not good PR for CML though.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
I've never heard about this ecologist woman before - has she been around for a while and is she employed by CML voluntarily or by someone else?

As for Cameron McNeish and the rest of the rabidly anti-skiing brigade it strikes me they might be better employed doing something about some of the over-development in the Alps (and potentuially elsewhere) than trying to destroy a few small ski areas in Scotland!

It puzzles me that there's such a fuss over anything that's done in the Scottish hills but over in the Alps ski development seems to go unchallenged whatever happens, even when it entails bulldozing areas of mountain to create so called beginner friendly runs!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
roga,
Quote:

I've never heard about this ecologist woman before - has she been around for a while and is she employed by CML voluntarily or by someone else?


Been around since the train was built AFAIK. To monitor damage or lack thereof to the European Protected areas. May not be the same one since the start. The ecologist will be a CML employee, but CML may get money for her salary as with the Rangers. Winterhighland, may know more details.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Of course I shouldn't be posting on here as I know b..... all about it, as several re-reads of the above has shown me. However, the Ecologist Woman exists at the other end of the spectrum and I feel all the better for my rant as a balance to her.
I am just an outside observer of this Alice in Wonderland farce, a Libran by birthsign, and am just amazed and exhausted by the inability of those who matter to reach a commonsense middle ground to preserve and yet enjoy this area of diverse natural possibilities. The informed skiers posting above seem to have a broad and sympathetic view of all parties' interests but can that prevail against the entrenched ecological extremists out there ? . Mad
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

over in the Alps ski development seems to go unchallenged whatever happens, even when it entails bulldozing areas of mountain to create so called beginner friendly runs!

not always the case. Although there are some fairly disruptive and unsightly things done within ski areas, there is active and quite effective opposition in some cases to lifts which open up previously untouched areas. The proposed link between the Espace Diamant and Megeve being one good example. As I understand it the reason that this hasn't happened is precisely because of effective opposition from the "ecolos". I think they're right, too. Each area is quite big enough already, and I don't want crowds from Megeve coming up to Les Saisies and Notre Dame because we have better snow cover! And I like walking in areas where the hillsides are not covered in ironmongery. I was upset to see great bulldozed areas when they were building some of the new Espace Diamant links but I have to say that with re-seeding and natural re-growth they don't look bad at all now. I don't know much (at all) about bio-diversity but I also suspect that the pine forests which are often the victims of new pistes have pretty low bio-diversity anyway and letting in some light at the edges may not be a bad thing. And the French aren't bad at managing the drainage to minimise erosion from heavy rain. Care has also been taken to put in "low impact" toilets - using no running water which has to be pumped up the hill. But clearly our whole sport is enormously disruptive on many levels.

I was amused by the comment about the hard-core mountaineers who object to a permanent path because it means they are not allowed to roam wherever they like. Reminded me of a joke "what's the difference between an ecologist and a developer". Answer - "the developer wants to build houses in the woods; the ecologist already has one".

Yes, balance is what's required, but it does seem hard to come by, especially in Scotland.
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