 Poster: A snowHead
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And fixing that bloody road up past Loch Lomond and through Glencoe would halve the journey time from Glasgow to Fort William!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I have heard that it is for real skiers only and that nancy boys like me who prefer the nicely groomed pistes need not apply. Oh and I have also heard that the mountain hut food is pap. |
Dunno - I got a half decent meat pie once. But you're right nancies need to steer clear - I once saw a bloke blown over a 12 foot drop after unloading from a poma at cairngorm (locals were referring to it as a bit of a breeze).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, I saw a similar thing happen top my mate in Sauze d'Oulx. Nowt to do with wind; he was just staring at the arus of a very fit italian bird and didn't see that his ride was over 
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| I have heard that it is for real skiers only and that nancy boys like me who prefer the nicely groomed pistes need not apply. Oh and I have also heard that the mountain hut food is pap. |
Mutton Pie and Beans is wholesome real food, and none of your Tartyflette pap 
As for the grooming. They do groom the slopes, really they do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Clearer piste marking in some areas - I know the fences are there etc. but it is not as clear and easy to find your way around as it is when there are the standard blue/red/black piste poles at the sides.
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That was a problem on occasion last year, particularly in poor vis - as someone had taken away all the snow fences I usually use to navigate by 
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So what most people find troublesome are:
Variable conditions/vis
Poor grooming, more akin to off piste than on
Difficult navigation due to poor signing
If these are the characteristics of the place, an presuming there isn't an infinite pot of money to sort them out, the promoters of these resorts need to turn these characteristics from problems into virtues.
When I went, I almost felt like it was my first off-piste/backcountry experience rather than piste skiing. Experienced off-pisters may feel free to scoff, but that's how both myself and sig. other felt. So make that a marketing USP! Get people up there in groups to do off-piste training (people are often asking this on the forum, where can they get their first taste of ungroomed wild skiing). Couple with a bit of mountain rescue and wotnot, turn it into a backcountry training ground.
Given that you're pretty much never going to succeed at marketing it as blue sky, groomed piste, with snow guarantee, this feels to me like the best way to exploit what IS there rather than thinking about how to install what is not.
Or have I been talking gibberish for the last 5 minutes?
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| paulio wrote: |
So what most people find troublesome are:
Variable conditions/vis
Poor grooming, more akin to off piste than on
Difficult navigation due to poor signing
If these are the characteristics of the place, an presuming there isn't an infinite pot of money to sort them out, the promoters of these resorts need to turn these characteristics from problems into virtues.
When I went, I almost felt like it was my first off-piste/backcountry experience rather than piste skiing. Experienced off-pisters may feel free to scoff, but that's how both myself and sig. other felt. So make that a marketing USP! Get people up there in groups to do off-piste training (people are often asking this on the forum, where can they get their first taste of ungroomed wild skiing). Couple with a bit of mountain rescue and wotnot, turn it into a backcountry training ground.
Given that you're pretty much never going to succeed at marketing it as blue sky, groomed piste, with snow guarantee, this feels to me like the best way to exploit what IS there rather than thinking about how to install what is not.
Or have I been talking gibberish for the last 5 minutes? |
This is what I meant. Off piste skiing is become more fashionable and to my mind Scotland offers a much less tamed experience than bigger resorts. I think Scotland should try to go for the "not for wimps" line of marketing. Everyone likes to think they're tough so play up to that, kind of like how so many skis are marketed for advanced to expert skiers but are skied by graceless numptys ( I put myself in that category). People who only ski when it's sunny, like long luxurious lunches and perfectly groomed pistes aren't going to like skiing in Scotland so why try to interest them?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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paulio, Glencoe is pretty easy to find there only really is one road. It is a terrible road though-been on the A82 about 4 times in the last few days and more than anything its people who cannot drive that are the danger.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Tyndrum to Glencoe is by far the best stretch of scottish ski road built!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Too much snow to mountain bike in the 7 stanes.
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paulio
user
Posts: 328 And fixing that bloody road up past Loch Lomond and through Glencoe would halve the journey time from Glasgow to Fort William!
I know it seems like miles but actually it's only a short section that is awful (Tarbet to Inverarnan). Unless you actually live in Glasgow it can be avoided by driving via Stirling & taking the A84.
Re the food: only Glencoe is really bad, I had a decent Venison Burger at Glenshee this year. You can even get a decent pint of heavy at Nevis (cannae get that in the Alps)! The tarts (food, you with the dirty mind) are better at Grand Montets but the food isn't a big issue.
Re signage: Cairngorm isn't bad, eg there are plenty of warnings below the Ciste before you hit the West Wall. Over Yonder is a bit confusing 1st time, East/white lady & M1 could be a bit better. They should advise on the best route down at base & in the funicular also. It's almost impossible to get lost at the Lecht. I thought GS was OK until I met someone who'd got totally lost up Carn Aosda & ended up bricking it so there must be some work to do up there. Front of Nevis is pretty well signposted & lots of signs warning abt serious risk of death if you go off towards the back. Since the back is off-piste they won't stick signs up past the top of the Summit/Warrens tows, it really is off-piste. That just leaves GC. I like it the way it is, they should just be a bit clearer saying eg 'Rannoch Glades is too rocky, FP too icy' at the bottom of the t-bar. Usually good abt the FP but sometimes no info on some other runs (& top-mid mt links). They should put 2 Xed poles up when a run is truly goosed but no more permanent markers needed. If you're  , you need to ask. Weegies are a friendly bunch.
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You know it makes sense.
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Lynseyf,
You're definately onto something there. Scottish skiing really suits the keen. That's why the standard of skiing here is so high, higher than almost any other resort I've ever been to, per head of skier.
But then that is what Britain is like isn't it ? Because our weather and our geology is so variable, so is the standard of many outdoor sports here eg. The Solent compared to the Adriatic, air sports compared to the Alps, rock climbing compared to Spain, even links golf compared to Portugal 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Peter S wrote: |
You're definately onto something there. Scottish skiing really suits the keen. That's why the standard of skiing here is so high, higher than almost any other resort I've ever been to, per head of skier.
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I've got to agree with that. Until this year I'd only skied in Scotland, Slovenia and Slovakia and I classed myself among the least skilled on the piste. This year I went to Zermatt and Mayrhofen and my skiing was much better  . I think many of the people skiing places like Scotland (and the smaller resorts in Slovenia and Slovakia) have been skiing all their lives and ski regualarly. Bigger resorts attract more of the once a year holiday skier so the average standard is lower.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I do ski Scotland but only infrequently. Problem for me is that I only rarely have free time that I can take at short notice including weekends due to childrens activities etc. If the conditions allowed me to plan more in advance I would ski more at home.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As others have mentioned, for those of us around London it's often cheaper to get to Geneva. As my French is better than my Scottish and the mountains are bigger in the Alps, it's not an option I have seriously considered once cost is factored in.
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I haven't skied in Scotland, but have been to the same areas winter mountaineering many times so know them well. I have worked out that it would cost £160 in diesel to get there and back, and we have access to cheap accomodation at Aviemore and near Fort William/Glencoe so cost wise it could be reasonable for a long weekend. Now I just convincing that it will be worth it. Pubs there are generally pretty grim ( why won't Scots landlords realise that warm customers make thirsty customers, and cold ones just leave?), eating would no problem as the accomodation is self catering.
What about the skiing? We are probably fairly typical intermediates who ski blues/reds/blacks on-piste, how much piste is there? Is there enough uplift to justify the liftpass costs, which don't seem very cheap? The weather is an issue, it is normally foul when we go winter mountaineering, though that has been Christmas/New Year in recent years. On Christmas day last winter the weather was fantastic (sunny, no wind), Cairngorm was shut because it was Christmas, and even most pubs were shut! On Boxing day it was shut because it was too windy for the funicular (90mph plus at the exit from the tunnel) when we went out on the hill, and even the previously open pub was shut! They really need to get thier act together in catering for visitors.
So - could I be convinced?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Superp post Haggis 
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I visited Scotland skiing a lot in the late 70s early 80s (mainly Glen Coe and Cairngorm) and enjoyed it. However after I discovered the joys of the Alps- the queues, weather, cost, limited terrain plus poor service and equipment meant that while I still love Scotland and spend many holidays walking, climbing, cycling and festi going there, I will never consider Scotland again for piste skiing. I might still do a bit of touring if the conditions are right but my days of dodging fences and waiting an hour for two minutes skiing on ice or slush are over.
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jbob,
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the queues, weather, cost, limited terrain plus poor service
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This is the sort of thing that leaves me unconvinced - I love Scotland for walking, climbing, mountain biking etc. but have heard many bad stories about the skiing and the infrastructure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, Love the web site, and quite impressed by your list of descents, I once had to tunnel out of the top of No4 gully.
I would be well up for Britain`s longest ski decent, most vertical would obviously be off the Ben but must have been done.
Any thoughts on the longest distance?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This thread also reaffirms that those of us who ski in Scotland regularly are passionate about what we have and that those who don't, won't or haven't, just don't get it yet.
Fundamentally though, the answer to the original question is about convenience and cost. All the BS about weather and food quality is irrelevant to the passionate snowsports enthusiast but is the typical comment made by those who have only ever experienced pre-packed convenience. Would the original cross-country and alpine skiing pioneers have cancelled their trips if it was windy, cloudy and difficult to buy a nice cappucino with their schnitzel and chips in a humungous monstrosity of a restaurant / cafe right next to the exit of the cablecar ?
The ridiculous, unfair and ungreen price ratio beween rail and car miles in comparison with air miles is definitely a huge part of the problem but policy will change that eventually so 'local' skiing facilities will inevitably become more cost competitive to travel to as a result. On the other hand, nothing but better local public transport can fix the fact that every one of the Scottish ski centres is an almost impossible prospect for say a family choosing to travel without a car and looking to stay over.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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moffatross, In my post above I did say that the cost of getting there is OK, and being a winter mountaineer am used to the weather, but you have to accept that windy weather, for which Scotland is famous does shut the uplift. As for other issues - I am still waiting to be convinced!
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RobinS, Stayed in Aviemore once at a self-catering place called The Bothy (which used to be a doctor's surgery apparently). There were a couple of pubs that served decent beer. there was one (name escapes me I'm afraid) that had at least 6 real ales. Yes restaurants in Aviemore cater for most tastes.
Skiing in Glenshee? We stayed in Braemar. Bit of a one horse town but again beer was ok and food adequate. A Saturday night out in the Spittal of Glenshee revealed a couple of decent pubs but a bit lacking in restaurants (chippy ?). It took about an hour to get there from Braemar IIRC.
This was all at least 12 years ago so my memory is getting a little hazy.
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You know it makes sense.
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halfhand, We have stayed in Aviemore several times over the years, the pub down by the river normally sells decent beer - but that was the one that shut for Boxing day! It does have a fire in the corner - but never enough fuel on it. In Fort Williaim we normally go to the downstairs bar at NevisSport, but it is not exactly cheery there. The Clachaig used to be a good pub, and still does sell good beer, except when they decide to clean all the pipes at the same time during opening hours, and the last few times I have been in there it has been freezing (indoors not out!). The back bar at the Kingshouse is the same, decent beer, but if you go in off the hill you'll get hypothermia! We never have an issue with food in Scotland, mainly because we cook for ourselves. I do have the benefit of being a member of a climbing club with huts in Aviemore and Kinlochleven.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If i still lived in scotland then i would definitely ski there whenever the conditions allowed me to. I grew up on the Black Isle which meant that all the resorts were less than 2 hours drive away so used to go most weekends. I now live in London so it's more of an effort to go just for a weekend, but i'm considering it more for next season, especially if i can convince a few mates to come and share fuel costs. Definitely a cool place to ski when there's enough snow.
If going for more than a just few days then I'd be more inclined to head to the alps though
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Braveheart chairlift isn't just closed because of conditions. The monday I was there near the end of last season were possibly the best conditions of the year but they didn't open and never intended to open, because they only open when they expect lots of people to ski it (ie at weekends and holidays).
I would be more likely to ski Nevis if Braveheart was opened more regularly - but realistically I would still go rarely - coming as I do from London.
My B&B (single room) Fort William was £27 per night.
I've never known a long lift queue at Nevis, even at weekends (well, certainly nowhere near the 1 hour mentioned). Are you sure that wasn't the queue for equipment hire on an exceptional weekend?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowball,
I'd consider the train up for a flying visit if the conditions were right...all the while I have my cheapo train card, that is..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| snowball wrote: |
| I would be more likely to ski Nevis if Braveheart was opened more regularly. |
Me too, a day around the Back at Nevis and a day skiing Spring Run and Fly paper at Glencoe are a great 2 days skiing experience, that's cheaper for me to drive from Leeds, 2 days B&B than fly to Europe.
regards,
Greg
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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http://picasaweb.google.com/neil2829/SunnyGlencoe13thApril/photo#5188841288621886434
This is a sunday (April 13th). I am the only person on the tow (at abt 9.15am). I recall it getting really busy so there was an occasional (<5 min) queue mid-afternoon. The opening day (12th jan) had 15min queues, but it was bluebird see below:
http://picasaweb.google.com/neil2829/Glencoe12thJanuary200802/photo#5192912704831389298
I never saw a significant queue at Nevis all season (except for the Braveheart which can't cope with over 50% loading, and only opens for weekends. Grr!)
http://picasaweb.google.com/neil2829/Nevis19thApril/photo#5191469869079689890
Infrastructure at most ski centres hasn't improved much but the skiing experience in Scotland is much better because:
1) Improved weather forecasting: In the old days you rang the ski centre or the ski hotline & got fed some nonsense all too often. The ski centre said all tows & runs were due to open on ceefax p421, no matter what the truth was. That was all the easily available info. The wonders of the www mean that while this poor forecasting still exists, more realistic forecasts are available (esp if you're willing to spend 10mins every evening watching them evolve thru the week). Alan @WH even translates the forecasts for you, the lovely man.
2) The crowds: These have gone (to the Alps). If they were still here, the regular users wouldn't be so keen on seeing more people clogging the tows. It's because everywhere is quiet despite the snow that spreading the word is so important. We want more people to come to ensure these places stay open.
3) Customer service: Admittedly that grumpy woman on the till at Nevis isn't great (she did smile at me last time though) but it has improved a bit. All the folk on the hills are very enthusiastic (special mentions to Davie at GC & that bloke who does the cartoons at GS).
No, it's not the Alps, but then it's not the 1970's either. Imagine a long weekend of GC on fri, Nevis all w/e (no crowds, Braveheart open) then Cairngorm on Monday.
Now imagine it with sunshine
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Look, as much as we'd all like to ski more regularly in Scotland, for most of us it's not economically viable even if the snow cover is fabulous. More to the point it's also not economically viable to the organisations that operate the ski resorts to maintain Alpine equivalent uplift facilities when the conditions mean regular closures due to high winds etc.. and the relatively small numbers of users.
Don't go to Scotland expecting the sort of infrastructure you get in the Alps. DO go to Scotland if you can go at short notice and want to challenge yourself. It's been a good number of years since I've been but when I did go I was a quite inexperienced skier and had a great time - tough for my level, fell over a lot but had great skiing and good times. It helped that I was with friends of similar ability BTW.
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Thanks for everyone who's posted so far, some great posts, some valid and some imho not so valid criticisms and some good ideas for Scottish Snowsports. This thread suggests that those who love Scottish Skiing and those that hate it, hold their views for the same reasons (If you see what I mean!) How far can the gap be closed to cater for those who are looking for more, without losing the atmosphere that makes it different and which for those who enjoy it, makes it what it is?
Customer numbers go up on CairnGorm markedly when there is skiing to the Daylodge (all other things being equal!) and people can ride to the carpark level. Would the concept of the Glenmore Gondola, replacing the carpark in Coire Cas and the road with some type of gondola lift affect the likelihood of you skiing at CairnGorm?
What would be the effect of snowmaking on the lower slopes to increase reliability of skiing to the Daylodge for example? Or say an offering of 3000ft of lift served vertical? 
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FAQ
