Driving to Austria in Feb 2009 ... Do I need winter tyres or will chains do?

A snowHead

stanton, 1999 sounds about right, cos that's when I quit UK to move to NL, and from NL I only ever did Lech and Les Gets for ski trips. Unfortunately I had a job to go to on the Monday morning, and some b*5t@rd gave me flu on that trip. I do remember news about a coach load of tourists sliding down a mountain after an evening sledge run.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stanton, The chains are a Michilin set that weight about 3.5 kilos that I had to buy in a garage in Italy on the way up to La Thuile as Hertz car hire had run out when I picked my car up from the airport. So Airberlin that I flew with in Feb to Munich has a 20kg limit on a bag and my bag was about 12kg so I put them in. AVIS wanted a lot of money for Winter tyres on a hire car and chains were not an option, so I thought I would use my chains and that was that. To be honest Winter tyres are a new thing for me as in England they just don't really exist. Called my local tyre speacialist today and his whole company have 1 set in stock for 205/55/16 only... and he said he has only supplied one set in the last 2 years.

The whole point of this thread is that I am trying to sort out my car for next year to drive to Austria. As when I have driven to France I have a set of chains in my car, and my car has summer tyres and never have any problems. Looks Like Germany and Austria are more strict with their laws than Italy and France...

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Well I have my spare bulbs and one relective jacket from driving in France. At this point I am thinking I will just drive to France as it is a lot easier!!! wink

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It is all getting a bit silly. Will this jacket do? Or is there some odd specification the plods will look for?

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stortfordhal - Winter tyres arent necessarily M+S tyres - Winter tyres have a snowflake marking- I think M+S tyres without the snowflake are all weather.
I know it all sounds like hassle, but it would be a shame not to ski Austria because any driving "issues". We skied France for years and then went to Austria last year and had a really good time. Austria isnt better than France but we liked really liked the atmosphere.

mikeh, thanks for the above ...All Weather tyres are the M & S ones and Winter ones have the snowflake..... so my extensive research has found out today. My family, 3 kids (16, 12 & 11) the wife and myself have been to France and Italy skiing and I have been to Austria several times with the lads, great Apres, loved it!!! So we all went to Obertauern last kids holidays in Feb, we loved it and we want to go back again to Austria, I fancy Lech this time as Obertauern was limited in verticals and piste size. So because the flights have gone up so much for the kids holidays next Feb, as all schools have the same holiday week in the UK next Feb, I have decided to drive with my neighbour that came to Obertauern with his family as well. Just trying now to be prepared for the SAustrian Old Bill!!! Blush

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peura,

I don't think all winter tyres (or tyres suitable for Austrian winter conditions) carry the snowflake symbol yet.

Regarding trailers I found this from ARBÖ (RAC equivalent) but it is dated 2004 .....

"Ein Zugfahrzeug mit Winterreifen benötigt am Anhänger keine weiteren Winterreifen. Fährt das Zugfahrzeug allerdings mit Spikereifen, müssen auch am Anhänger Spikereifen montiert sein."

http://www.tripple.net/contator/auto/news.asp?ber=15&nnr=15685

Rough translation, "A vehicle with winter tyres does not require winter tyres on a trailer. If however the vehicle has spikes/studs then so must the trailer."

this is dated October 2007 and basically says the same.
http://www.arboe.at/209+M52ef70f4f21.html

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DB, thanks. You're probably right about the snowflake symbol. Surprising because IIRC it's been around quite a while now.
Thanks for the info about the trailers. I've not found the ARBÖ website as the ÖAMTC one when looking for winter tyres tests. IIRC the winter tyre law was drafted after Oct 2007. I wonder if the situation has changed? Presumably not if there's no more recent info.

While stanton is generally right that you don't often need chains, you definitely do need them in Austria from time to time. The last time for me being last December on the Arlberg pass. That was the first time I'd used any for about ten years though, and I do spend a lot of time driving in Austria.
As far as winter tyres are concerned it's been law in Austria since 2007 (see German article here), and you can expect fines of up €5000 Shocked

if you don't have any and are caught driving in wintry conditions. You have to have winter tyres on all wheels. As mentioned above, you would also have to fear the insurance using the lack of winter tyres as an escape cause! Not good!

You know it makes sense.

Ah, I see that stanton is being his normal controversial self! I reckon Alex is right about the last time stanton got behind the wheel in Austria. wink

FWIW I have driven to Austria or Switzerland every year except three since '89. I have always had ordinary tyres, all be it with with the benefit of a 4x4 Sierra and 4x4 Mondeo. I have always carried chains but have never had to use them.

However, for the '09 trip I am planing on buying Vredestein's all weather Qautrac3 which does have the M&S and snowflake symbols. They probably won't be as good as a full snow tyre but with the four wheel drive I hope that they will be a good compromise. Although these days I go via France as the peage is much less frenetic than the autobahmns, I will have the option of travelling through Germany if I want or need to. Besides, it seems that I will need the apropriate tyre now in Austria according to Steilhang.
http://www.vredestein.com/Banden_Bandtypes.asp?UsersessionID=73&BandgroepID=3&BandtypeID=66

It will save seasonal tyre changes and storage and although I live in the south should provide some additional security through the winter months. We can have quite a period of sub 7 degree days. Conveniently my current Avon ZV3s (they have been fine up to the law change) will be down to about 3mm by the start of winter so it is just a case of shelling out for one new set of treads.

BTW, I'm not sure all bods in the car need a hi-viz jacket. The Austrian web site says the driver needs one. No mention of the passengers. I could stand corrected, though.

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A snowHead

achilles,

You'd probably get away with a one piece luminous ski suit / fart bag. Wink

A snowHead

DB, oh dear - I had been hoping not to be tempted into joining that gang at the basjes Laughing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Got this back from the Austrain Tourist board. So looks like All Weather Snow and Mud tyres OK they are saying as well as winter tyres!!! So does DB, agree with that or are the Tourist Board out of date? Smile

Dear Sir,

Thank you very much for your inquiry.

The information you received is correct: Since last year winter tyres are compulsory during the winter season. Snow chains are only accepted as an alternative if the entire road is heavily covered with snow.

Another alternative are all-seasons-tyres marked with SM (snow and mud).

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
Best regards,

Gregor Krassnig

Holiday Service of the Austrian National Tourist Office

PO Box 83

A-1043 Vienna

E-Mail: holiday@austria.info

Internet: www.austria.info

ZVR: 075857630

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Just to add a different slant to the thread......

Travelled to Austria a couple of years ago with UK (summer) 18" tyres and a set of chains in the boot. We had a puncture in the run flat tyre in Germany on the way down. Could I get a replacement tyre? Not in stock in Germany unless I wanted to wait for them to ship one in. So I bought (at huge expense) a whole 17" wheel and tyre combination from BMW Assistance (who were excellent) and went on my way. I now have a set of 17" winter wheels and tyres which I used for the first time this year and will again next time. Moral of the story - think about what tyres you have if you only have a space saver spare or no spare (as in my case)

Dave

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stortfordhal,

IMO he should of stated the minimum tread depth and mentioned the sipes when offering M&S tyres as an alternative. Looks like I might have to give Herr Krassnig a call.
It would be clearer if many people here used M&S tyres here but they use winter tyres instead.

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I was intending to go to Austria over New Year, guess I won't bother now.

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MazDave, Thanks for the tip. Will make sure I get 5 tyres!! .. After a week of this I am going to buy a set of tyres that elj221c, is buying!!! http://www.vredestein.com/Banden_Bandtypes.asp?UsersessionID=73&BandgroepID=3&BandtypeID=66 That look pretty good to me. If the Old Bill stop me I will have on my tyres a snowflake, M + S rated markings and my chains in the boot... Plus my HV vest as well. Laughing

DB, you had better call the tourist board mate as they are saying one thing and your contacts another are they not? From what I take from it All Season tyres will do that have M + S markings and snowchains. Very confusing!!

There better be good snow when I drive there!!! At least I know the beer will be good!!!

PS.

Anyone know what is the best place for a mixed bunch of skiers including one real beginner? Done Obertauern this Feb and fancy somewhere else. What is Lech like for a beginner?

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I guess the important thing is that if you put tyres on that are more suited to winter use and have chains then you'd be fine. As a foreigner, if you did get pulled up then the Polizei (Austrian or German) would hardly deport you for such an offence, and would probably explain things. Summer tyres with or without chains is silly and asking for insurance issues in the increased likelihood of an accident. (edit: in any country, not just 2 that have a specific law)

PS Lech has some quite easy terrain that's good for beginners (iirc). No idea about lessons/schools though.

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http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html

Is this then inaccurate or too simplistic?

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Last season when people were stranded overnight the cause was reported to be foreigners (non-Austrians) who ignored advice by the police not to drive any further because they didn't have suitable tyres for winter conditions. This was ignored and vehicles started sliding around until large streches of the motorway were blocked with pile-ups. There was a big discussion as to who would of been at fault had people (esp young childen) frozen to death. The police, motorway authorities and people who determine Austrian law all started to try and pass the blame onto each other. Austrian police now have new powers and can order people to stop if they do not have the correct winter equipment. So who are the police going to stop and check if the same servere winter conditions happen again? (answer = foreigners because most Austrians have winter tyres). In the dark during a snow storm this is going to take time and so don't be surprized if you are in the queue behind many Eastern European truck drivers. You might have M&S tyres that are suitable for winter but without the easy to see symbol it's likely you will be asked to pull over until a policeman gets round to checking them. I can see the Snowflake/Mountain winter tyres symbol becoming compulsory for all winter tyres in the next few years. My advice would be to go for winter / allseason tyres with the snowflake symbol now so that you are sure the tyre has winter performance (not just an M&S symbol) and you can quickly point out the symbol to police when conditions are severe.

PS don't forget the tyre has to have a min tread depth of 4mm.

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Hi everyone!

As I saw one of e-mails in here, I thought I'd give you more up to date information, which was confirmed by the legal department of the ÖAMTC (Austrian automobil touring club):

All M&S tyres can be used instead of winter tyres - there does not have to be an additional symbol on there. As soon as your all season tyres are marked with M&S, the police can not fine you.

Greetings from the Austrian National Tourist Office

P.S.: There is also only ONE jacket compulsary by law (for the driver).

Gregor Krassnig - ANTO,

Welcome to snowheads and thanks for the clarification. There are however a few things which I believe in the interest of safety should be pointed out to international tourists.

1. The minimum tread depth is 1.6mm for tyres in the UK, depending on tread pattern 4 or 5 mm would be required here in Austria for the M&S tyre to be legal during winter.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

DB, thanks, I think. I guessing pictures would help with this question. I think I know what you mean. Most of the M+S tyres I've seen are either blocks or "arrowheads". I've only seen summer tyres with a diagonal tread on them. Come to think of it I wonder if that is why my "summer" tyres (Nokian NRHi) have "All season in North America only" on them?
BTW have you seen this "Larger tyres, less grip?" on Motor.no. Hopefully you can make sense of most of it.

A snowHead

I have been skiing in the Alps for the last 10 years by driving various 2WD and 4x4.

I started off with an ordinary 2WD and a set of snow chains but graduated to a 4x4 with all season tyres and snow chains.

People should consider the practical side of using snow chains which are recommended for speed no higher than 50kph! Therefore summer tyres with snow chains is not a substitute for winter tyres. Anybody who has fitted and removed the snow chains for a few times would know that.

When there is little snow it is not comfortable to travel with snow chains because of the continuous bumps and the harsh noise.. When you do need to put the chains on or remove them you will find a space big enough and safe enough to install/unistall the chains is hard to come by.

It is really for a UK traveler's own comfort, safety and convenience to fit a decent set of "all weather" tyres. Don't choose one for high motorway speed as the tread pattern will not be "mud" and snow". Block pattern generates noises whereas continuous rings is preferred for the directional stability. Don't go after a high mileage tyre as it will have a hard compound unsuitable in cold weather. Tyres that have micro grooves or zips can enhance grip with snow and so is a standard feature in winter tyres and all season tyres.

Winter tyres do not have higher friction they are just softer and able to withstand lower temperatures. Any tyre with a soft compound will brake better and grip better than the hard summer tyre at the expense of wearing sooner.

As many 4x4 and trucks have wheel sizes seldom covered by snow tyres so it is impossible to mandate every vehicle to fit winter tyres. Any normal tyre that has features to cope with snow condition is automatically an all weather tyre.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

saikee, All of what you say is fine. For me, it would come down to either: Go ski Austria with the car/tyres I own which work just fine in snow, or: avoid Austria because the authorities there expect me to spend out on a whole different set of tyres before driving on their roads.
Simple really.

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snowbunny, you'd better not drive to France then because I think the authorities there require you to have snow chains, which are even less use here than winter tyres Toofy Grin

.
More seriously I used to have tyres I thought were fine in the snow. Then (more or less on a whim) I decided to get some winter tyres. Now whenever I have to drive in snow and ice I spend my time either laughing and feeling amazed at unscary and effortless winter driving has become or worrying about the likelihood that the person behind will take twice as long to stop as me.

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peura, Fine, no worries I always carry chains. I know I have tyres that are fine in snow, they have been tested in snow over several winters, are M+S and not had to use chains yet, and BTW I do know how to fit them.

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peura, so aren't your M+S tyres legal in Austria? Although sub-optimal i.e. if you were following me too close when I had to brake hard you'd hit me at ~35km/h rather than ~49km/h.

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peura, I would not worry too much. While the Austrian contingent debate the level of their welcome to foreign tourists on the roads by reading the print on their tyres, I shall be going elsewhere. Presumably if authorities there ban vehicles which don't have snowflakes on their tyres, hauliers from abroad will arrange a food drop at the border.

After all it is free

snowbunny,
They are not enforcing winter tyre setups to be unfriendly, people (inc young children) almost froze to death after a large accident caused by foreigners with summer tyres.

Would it be OK for people from Poland to drive on UK roads with bald tyres?

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snowbunny,

So you saving a few quid is worth more than the safety of other people on the road?

Austria has hundreds of ski resorts, the reason we need proper tyre setups is because we get real winters and a large percentage of the country is covered by mountains. No winter in the 30 years I spent in the UK compares to the winters here in Austria.

The biggest danger is fuly laden East European trucks hitting cars on motorways, i.e. its for your own good.

Another thing, Austria isn't the only country requiring a specific winter tyre setup and it's a bit of a pain driving from the UK without going through Germany or Switzerland.

Help!!

Driving to Austria in Feb 2009 ... Do I need winter tyres or will chains do?

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