 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, how soft are you keeping your knees and ankles? Without seeing you it does sound like your too stiffened up to absorb your board movements over the surface. When you relax your lead leg onto the tongue of your boot, your mass will go forward and your toes will automatically pressure the edge. Don't try to use your ankles to rotate your toes into the slope. Don't wory about your rear leg, just let it be soft and neutral to begin with. As your toe edge bites, the board will turn and as it turns the rear of the board will begin to sldeslip around. That's when you lower your rear knee to slightly pressure that end of the toeside edge. It will grip and if you move your mass to be central over your stance, you will traverse across the slope.
To release and turn from there to heelside. Gently release the edges and move your weight forward. Don't try to lean or pressure the heel edge yet, just let your mass turn the board down the hill. Once you pass the straight down the fall-line point, drop your leading knee and hip and you'll feel the leading heel edge begin to grip and turn the board across the slope. Again, when you feel the rear leg begin to slip, take your weight back a little and engage the rear leg heel edge and traverse the hill.
Try not to over analyse. More important is to not look down and to really relax. Keep your legs soft to absorb the small movements that knock you off balance. Don't exaggerate your upper body and shoulder movement, a board is best steered from your hips down. Look to where you want to go and your body will try to get there.
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VolklAttivaS5, something tells me you need a different instructor! Maybe there's a reason why you're the only in in the group.  What you describe sounds much more like starting off with a diagonal side slip on your front edge - definitely something you'd do, in both directions and on both edges, before going on to a complete edge to edge turn. It's the "get out of jail card" of snowboarding (she said confidently, by no means always able to do it!). You remain on the front edge the whole time. Heels still come into it though, as you are pressing down a bit more into your front foot heel to get going, and your back foot heel to slow down. A more "loopy" controlled thing then becomes a garland. When you fall, are you falling forwards or backwards?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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VolklAttivaS5, right I'm going to reply to your post before reading the other posts.
Don't roll your knees, change the pressure you exert with your foot e.g. to turn to toe edge start by pushing with your little toe of your front foot then move along to the big toe then the back foot starting with the big toe, the same with going to heel side: start on the outside of the front heel and move the pressure along the edge of the board.
Gah, bet Masque has said this already but although it's a very useful technique at times it shouldn't be the first thing taught to beginners, this is responsible for all the "bulldozing" comments aimed at boarders.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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VolklAttivaS5, time for a trip to the snowdome ! 
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Read the rest of it now,
I think Lizzard is quoting me. She's correct in so far as later on in your boarding career you want to stay on edge the whole time but when you're starting out it's the easiest way to be aware of what the whole board is doing round the whole turn.
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I don't know what he's trying to get you to do but it certainly doesn't sound like a RH turn for a goofy rider.
I agree that falling leaf while a useful exercise in sideslip control is not a universal panacea and in fact can be detrimental to progression IMO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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VolklAttivaS5, no, only had three hours on a board, a long time ago. So if I go for that as second discipline I'll be starting from scratch. Good luck with it 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| VolklAttivaS5, something tells me you need a different instructor! Maybe there's a reason why you're the only in in the group. What you describe sounds much more like starting off with a diagonal side slip on your front edge - definitely something you'd do, in both directions and on both edges, before going on to a complete edge to edge turn. It's the "get out of jail card" of snowboarding (she said confidently, by no means always able to do it!). You remain on the front edge the whole time. Heels still come into it though, as you are pressing down a bit more into your front foot heel to get going, and your back foot heel to slow down. A more "loopy" controlled thing then becomes a garland. When you fall, are you falling forwards or backwards? |
I'm falling forwards onto my front pam w. What you said above sounds like that's what I'm doing. What do you mean "get out of jail card".
Thing is, I do think you're right about maybe I need a different instructor! Having been through the BASI Level 1 system myself (this guy isn't BASI by the way) I know what to expect if you like as I'm sure the learning process in stages is quite similar to teaching someone to ski. I did think to myself the last couple of times that he wasn't much cop (as an instructor due to lack of demos and me having to prompt him to do a demo etc) but thought I'd hopefully pick it up in a few hours lessons (I'm only on 2 hours so far) and as I said to rob@rar the slope is only down the road from me, it's cheap and convenient and absolutely deserted this time of year and can get a one to one lesson etc rather than going to the Snowdome which is a good 90 miles away! The plan was (despite the skills of the instructor) to get me to making S shapes from the top and then off I go to develop myself.
Mind you, there is no doubt this young chap is a brilliant boarder and skier as he skis and boards in parks and pipes and things, so he must be skilled, however as we all know the best boarders/skiers don't always make the best teachers!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, thanks! It's certainly "different" anyway but I will endeavour! I'm confident I can have it nailed (making S shapes anyway) with another couple of hours lessons! Yeehaa!
Masque, I'm not thinking about keeping anything soft at the moment! Just trying to get my head round what I'm meant to be doing with my feet. I think I got my head round it all thinking about it in bed last night. Interesting about what you said about pushing forwards onto the tongue of the boot instead of using your ankles to rotate your toes. I have been trying to steer it using my lower body instead of trying to chuck the board around.
fatbob, Swirly, interesting about your thoughts on the Falling Leaf. I like that one and I find it easy especially on the heel side. I like heel side more than toe side.
I'm going to go to Tamworth as I said to david@mediacopy in a couple of weeks,then at the end of August I will be at Chill Factore on the Sunday night. Swirly, can you come to Chill Factore so I can see you board? 
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VolklAttivaS5, "get out of jail" card in that you can just side slip your way down the slope, if you bottle out of turning. As in skiing. My son's GF mastered this and would come neatly down - on her feet - and I would dash off and turn my way down, and fall several times. We met about the same time at the bottom, but I was more knackered! I am now completely confused because if you can easily do the "falling leaf" I don't see why you're having so much problem with what sounds like a garland. Even if the instructor is calling it a toe to heel side turn! If you do that you start facing up the hill, and end up facing down, having switched the board from toe edge to heel edge.
Without establishing quite clearly what you are actually trying to accomplish, it's hard to envisage what might be happening. If you perfectly accomplished the manoevre you're aiming at, what would it look like? Have you looked at skiTV -
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skitv/playlist.asp?intCategoryID=14
The scary moment is when the board is in motion straight down the fall line, and you have to switch edges. There's no snowboard equivalent of a snowplough turn. Turn parallel, or not at all! If you snatch at the edges to change too soon - that's when you do the catapulting edge-catch fall. I did one of those onto my back and head at Milton Keynes and saw the point of the compulsory helmet. The whiplash was severe enough to make watching TV a bit of a trial for a few days.... I had a similarly bone-shaking fall when I caught the front edge, because I was on a track, and bottled out of really committing myself to the heel-edge ride towards the edge.
By the way, I think the point Masque makes is really important and useful even for beginners - it helped me. Just sag, sack of potatoes, and use your feet to steer the board. I don't think "Lower body" really needs to come into it at all. I find it helps to envisage myself in very baggy trousers, stoned.....not to mention around 14 years old.
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You know it makes sense.
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VolklAttivaS5, I'm sure that you'll hook up with one of the Tamworth boarding guys who'll be able to point you in the right direction. I know some teach both so you should be OK. I'll see if I can make it over for one of the evenings too - just the excuse I need.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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VolklAttivaS5, if I'm around I'll come across, that's not long before I go to Chamonix so there's a high chance I'll be up a hill somewhere desperately trying to get fit though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, yep I've watched Becci Malthouse's videos on Ski TV before I started lessons. In fact I used her squeezing fruit under your toes analogy when I was learning to toe side slip! It worked a treat but then again she is an expert so it probably does.
I think I am meant to be coming round onto my heel side (and therefore end up facing down the slope before starting the next turn) but I am falling down (bottling it) before I get the chance to put pressure on my back foot heel side.
david@mediacopy, I think that sounds like a good plan.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Swirly, you're going to Chamonix in September? Mountain biking is it? Oh, it would be great if you could come over I'd really like to see you board. I've got another boarding friend who I met on the BASP First Aid course who is coming as well. I'm sure you will find it a value adding experience!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, climbing although I might do a bit of biking especially if the weather's bad. I've been desperately trying to avoid doing it as it seems like something I'll really enjoy but it's too expensive to take up another sport.
You never know, I spent a couple of hours with a friend who was learning to board in Morzine this winter. I used the time to try and improve my switch riding which I've always neglected so it was a morning well spent.
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Swirly, cool. I love all these outdoor sports and would love to do all of them, but I would end up paying for nice new things for all of them otherwise like you say! I have already invested in some Salomon Ivy snowboard boots but then again they were £100 so not as expensive as ski boots and so important to have own boots with either discipline.
Will be good to meet you if you can get over! You can tell me about your plans for Les Deux Alpes at the same time., I'm itching to do a season myself, but alas, I will have to wait a wee while longer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I am falling down (bottling it) before I get the chance to put pressure on my back foot heel side.
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you need to get firmly onto your FRONT foot heelside first, though, as you go "round the bend". That's the move that you're bottling, by the sound of it. Only once you're round does the back foot heelside come into play, to brake your speed you'd otherwise be picking up down the fall line. You sort of sink down onto the board as you come round (position described to me as the one you'd take up if you were in a dirty public toilet trying not to touch the seat...)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, oh right. So let me get this straight.
My board is across the fall line to my right from my weight being on my front foot toes. My weight is on front foot toes currently.
He said to put weight onto back foot toe to equalise board, then I put weight on front foot heel side to come round the bend, then I put weight on back foot heel side to brake as it were.
Front foot for accelerator back foot to brake, (got that from Becci Malthouse's Ski TV). Then when board is going across the fall line again (in the opposite direction to just now with my body now facing down the hill) I put weight on the front foot toes again, then back foot toes to finish that curve in the direction I was originally travelling (in my case with my body facing up the hill as goofy footed)
Is that it?
So it's toe toe heel heel, toe toe heel heel?
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| Quote: |
He said to put weight onto back foot toe to equalise board, then I put weight on front foot heel side to come round the bend, then I put weight on back foot heel side to brake as it were.
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yes, but the weight goes across to the front foot toe side first, then rolls round to the heelside. I don't think you could go straight from the back foot toe to the front foot heel.
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Front foot for accelerator back foot to brake
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yes when you're on your back edge, but of course other way round if you're on the front edge - then it's heel down to speed up, braking on the front edge.
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when board is going across the fall line again (in the opposite direction to just now with my body now facing down the hill)
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this is the second of two linked turns, right? In that case, I guess your weight will have to be shifting in order to get the board through the fall line, rather than after it's happened.
Yes, toe toe heel heel - the weight rocks round the board and changes direction (clockwide/anticlockwise) as you go into the transition to the next turn. Neil McNab shows that really well. I practised it mentally all through a session at the dentist having a root canal filling....
Please don't take my word for it though - you need someone more experienced!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque, I agree. I asked if I could try the movements further down the hill, even on a bit that is too shallow so I could get the feel of the movements in sequence and he said it wouldn't work  . What shall I do then? Shall I have a lesson at the Snowdome with a BASI instructor when I go up there or continue with this chap? What do you reckon? I think perhaps try someone else but perhaps it's me that isn't getting it.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 14-07-08 21:36; edited 1 time in total
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I must say his explanations could do with being a bit more exact. I've found out more from here than I have from him really. I know what you mean about being relaxed, that makes sense like you say in the case with skiing. He hasn't mentioned soft legs or relaxing at all. I know that though from my skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thinking too hard about all of this stuff is on a par with looking at your feet (or indeed gawping at your own navel) - you're going to fall over. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lizzard, no don't have any trouble with keeping my head up. Am used to that from skiing. I guess I have only had 2 hours lessons. Rome wasn't built in a day after all. Trouble is I am impatient. I will endeavour though and have it sorted soon enough.
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| Masque wrote: |
| If you're on a traverse (toe or heel) with the full edge engaged in the surface, the release does not need to be a 'full-on' drive to the opposite edge, it just needs for you to soften off the edge grip, move your weight forward and the board will naturally turn down the fall-line. It allows you to collect your balance and then initiate the next part of the turn. If you try this sequence at a shallow slope angle first so that you learn to string the elements together at a safe/moderate pace, then, once it becomes a seamless movement take it back up the hill and increase your speed. |
Being patient will help too. Give the board time to turn down the fall line before changing edges. Can be scary though 
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You know it makes sense.
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david@mediacopy, especially on a dry slope when it takes an age to come round.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, my Neil McNab Go Snowboard book with DVD has just arrived! I've had a quick flip through the book just before going out and it looks good! I will watch the DVD when I get home later. Also I've got a book called Snowboarding Skills with some useful stuff in it to have a look at too. Hopefully both will help. Will feedback later, thanks for the tip about the book.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, update about the Neil McNab Go Snowboard book and DVD.......much simpler thanks! Now if the instructor had explained it to me like they have in that book then I wouldn't have felt so ! Very useful it was too, seeing the demonstrations on the DVD being done by a goofy rider, much easier to understand as you said it would be. Funnily enough because I've been used to thinking about skiing in the technical way, I did imagine that "pedalling" would come into boarding, and I was pleasantly surprised to see I was right and that it was mentioned in the Neil McNab book.
I will leave having another lesson on the dry slope now I think until I go to Tamworth in a couple of weeks and try it on "snow" there. I will arrange a lesson with one of their BASI guys there.
The other book Snowboarding Skills was also very good with little bits of useful information here and there. One thing about me being goofy footed though.....in the various books it said to put your "strongest" foot as your back foot to steer with. In this case, this would be my right foot, and so therefore according to that then my left foot would be forward and therefore I would be regular.
If I was to kick a football, run up stairs, or if I was pushed or pulled, I would use my right foot first to step out or kick the ball. On a skateboard I would have my right foot on the board and then push with my left foot, same as if on a scooter. Having my left foot at the front doesn't feel "right" to me so I must be goofy anyway right?
I don't suppose it matters because I will need to ride both stances eventually anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Goofy doesn't have anything to do with being right footed - you just know which you are although various analogies are used to determine what a beginner is. The books aren't perfect as is not an exact science.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, ok. So it's whatever feels "right" then is it? Which one are you fatbob? And are you right footed?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| If I was to kick a football, run up stairs, or if I was pushed or pulled, I would use my right foot first to step out or kick the ball. On a skateboard I would have my right foot on the board and then push with my left foot, same as if on a scooter. Having my left foot at the front doesn't feel "right" to me so I must be goofy anyway right? |
Sounds like goofy to me. . . ride goofy too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quad post...
What I was trying to edit was.... I ride goofy too 
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 18-07-08 18:38; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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edit triple post - starting to get annoying now...
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 18-07-08 18:35; edited 1 time in total
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edit, double post...
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VolklAttivaS5, stand relaxed feet together, have your OH gently push you, whatever foot goes first should be at the front of a snowboard.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm goofy & right footed/handed but but know plenty of regular people who are RH/F
If it feels right and the other way feels unnatural then its probably what you are thoughI think people do sometimes change in the first few days.
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| arv wrote: |
| VolklAttivaS5, stand relaxed feet together, have your OH gently push you, whatever foot goes first should be at the front of a snowboard. |
That's what I meant about being pushed/pulled above, I always step out first with my right foot so I'm definitely goofy.
david@mediacopy I'm going to have a lesson at Tamworth now and have packed in the dry slope lessons, only had 2 hours on a dry slope but hoping to get an hours lesson at Tamworth on Sunday 3rd August after I've done my days shadowing for my Alpine L1. If not, then sometime during that week. We will have to meet up in the evening as I'm doing shadowing all day every day that week 4th-8th Aug, hope that's ok?
Does anybody else want to come to Tamworth that week for a board with us? I hope I can make turns by then.
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FAQ
