 Poster: A snowHead
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I have the impression (and this has been echoed by many others) that the ski seasons are starting and ending later (perhaps the latter more than the former). I reckon there is also often a slump late in the early season after early snow - often going on into mid season.
Are there any good studies to back this up?
If there is really a trend in this direction, how long has it been going and what is the future? Is it linked to global warming?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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yes, interesting thread title. As I said elsewhere Christmas was certainly widely regarded as very dodgy in the mid '80s, when I started arranging family hols. And I remember one of the earliest "Good Ski Guides" I read, which was probably around the same time, saying that places like Tignes closed their lifts because of lack of interest/punters, not lack of snow. So maybe, if there is a trend, it's not exactly a recent one. Easter has certainly always been a better bet than Christmas since I've been doing ski hols. My very first, in 1973, was in April. So no discernable trend in my ski lifetime. I wonder what the stats say?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
| Is it linked to global warming? |
Unlikely, since there's been no obvious trend in global mean temperature this century. Indeed, the first four months of this year was colder, globally, than any year since 1996 - with an indifferent start and good finish to the Alpine season.
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Well, my memory is not that good but I seem to remember when I was young and skied with my parents (50s / 60s) Easter was a much less good bet than Christmas.
We do seem to have had a succession of seasons when the best snow seemed to be late. I'll have a look at the SCGB Historical records but I don't know if a look at a few resorts over the last 15 years is going to be very significant statistically!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Way too early to find it statistically accurate, think it is more like a good season or a bad season. Cyclical weather rather than definate global warming IMO.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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But is there a trend from my childhood to now - that should be possible to see.
I had a look at Val d'Isere over the last 15 years on the SCGB site
I looked at April and couldn't see any obvious trend - Since 1994 The bigest april snows were in 1994 and 1995. However in those days they seemed usually not to keep the lifts open after mid April (the stats said n/a) but from 1998 on, the figures include the third week of April so I imagine they opened the lifts an extra week.
Was this caused by an acceptance that the season had got later?
I cannot think why lift opening should be so out of step with available snow unless it is a legacy from a time when it was not so out of step.
Looking at when in the season there was the most snow
08 mid March
07 mid March
06 mid March
05 end Jan & end April
04 late Jan
03 mid Feb
02 late Feb & early March
01 end March
00 start March
99 later Feb & early March
98 end Jan & mid March
97 Dec-early Jan & late Feb
96 early Jan & late Feb
95 March
94 early Jan & Feb-early March
Edit: I tried to set that out to make it more visual but the system ignored spaces and packed the text together again. not sure why.
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snowball, I suspect that's cos HTML ignores multiple spaces (guess who's trying to teach himself web development?)
Someone, somewhere (in summertime) posted that in 1934 the good burghers of Kitzbühel decided that they couldn't advertise their ski resort for Christmas as the snow wasn't reliable. The seasons been getting "later" ever since...or ever before. I suspect it's down to poor memories and human fallibility. A bit of "look backwards badly bias".
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snowball, I take it your looking at accumulated depths? It might be worth considering snowfall amounts across the months and at what height the snow/freeze levels were. The other thing to consider might be at what heights as Tignes and Val's main area goes down to 1850(i know les brevieres is down lower) wheras a fair bit of the PDS and Chamonix valley's home runs go down to 1000-1200 metres.It would be interesting to know from when and to in a season you can ski all the way back on these home runs and if any trends have developed over the last few years.
One reason for the seasons appearing to last later could be down to increased snowmaking and better maintenance of the snow already there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Atomic_Mick, yes the machinery and skill of the modern piste bashers must make a considerable difference in maintaining pistes late season .. i would agree that its lack of intrest and people wanting to make sure of snow and booking all their hols for march at the latest that makes resorts shut up shop early..
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CANV CANVINGTON, Yeah-it frustrates the hell out of me that so many tour ops finish their seasons by mid April with some even earlier when theres cleary decent skiing right into May at resorts like Tignes-it must be down to lack of demand or maybe even ignorance, and why is it that the majority of early and late season flights seem only to be out of Gatwick with the tour ops-not exactly central for the majority of the population is it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Atomic_Mick, It's lack of demand and the requirement for a lot of the saisonniers to get a little holiday in before the summer onslaught in their summer jobs down south.
Gatwick I presume is such a charter hub because it is central enough for enough of the population...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
right into May at resorts like Tignes
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But there are not that many resorts like Tignes. Most close their lifts before the end of April and many lower areas are often green or very slushy by then too. For exaple in 2006/7 the snow was pretty poor below 2000m, by mid April in much of France, after some weeks of baking hot weather. I drove up to Val Thorens to find some snow in mid April, and most of the Belleville valley - right up past Les Menuires - was bare of snow. It would be wrong to get the impression that lifts are always closed long before the snow goes. The snowmaking wizardry does little good once the nights are not reliably freezing and when the earth has begun to warm up. Good skiing in very early, or very late, season is a fantastic bonus and it's great to be able to be flexible enough to take advantage of it. But it's maybe not a good basis for commercial operations who must organise charter schedules and commit themselves to big fixed costs a year and more in advance? Nonetheless it remains the case that late March, when the slopes are generally quiet, often has much better snow cover than late December, when they are heaving.
As for climate change, the following quote is a bit old, but there does seem to be a trend which doesn't look too fantastic for late season skiing:
| Quote: |
| The past decade in Europe (1990–1999) has been the warmest in the instrumental record, annually and for winter. Increases in growing-season length also have been observed in Europe—for example, in western Russia (Jones and Briffa, 1995) and in Fennoscandia (Carter, 1998). Trends in the intensity of the growing season as measured by growing degree days, however, are more ambiguous in both of these studies. The evidence for longer growing seasons in Europe also is supported by phenological data collected in central Europe (Menzel and Fabian, 1999). These data point to increases of about 10 days in average growing-season length since the early 1960s. Other biological indicators of a changing growing season in Europe include poleward shifts of 35–240 km during this century in entire ranges of 34 different butterfly species (Parmesan et al., 1999) and earlier breeding times for several species of amphibians and migratory birds during the past few decades |
http://www.grida.no/climate/IPCC_tar/wg2/494.htm
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I don’t know about trends over time, but I have defiantly noticed that there is usually a BIG dump around the second / third week in March that sets up the last part of the season.
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You know it makes sense.
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Talking of higher temperatures in alpine regions one sign is that bushes and trees are growing higher up the mountain, clogging gulleys people used to ski off-piste. Two guides have told me it is a problem in some places and I've noticed it myself in a couple of gulleys I can't ski any more. That would suggest that snow cover lasts less long now, at least on lower slopes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowball, ... I have also heard a further explanation from some guides, especially in affluent areas such as Courchevel, that a lot of mountain land is no longer grazed by goats, etc, as landowners income is derived elsewhere.
I have certainly found some gullies as you describe, full of 'Alder' type bushes that goats would normally eat as young shoots, though a guide has shown me a technique for skiing some of them - I call it the 'Bodecia Method' and my take on it is NOT pretty ... ! Guide Didier Givois urges caution though indicating that these bushes ... " are stronger than knee ligaments" ... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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ringingmaster, do you have any data to back that up?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Regardless of the weather, it has long been true that there are fewer people around at the end of the season than at the beginning. People want to do everything sooner and sooner these days. I was preparing for a busy day today when, at around 0920, someone on the radio told me they were going to help me "wind down to my weekend". With 20% of the working week still to go! In Marks and Spencers last week, some time before the end of the school term, they had their "back to school" displays. And we all know that shops in early October are full of Christmas crap. On Boxing Day people are bombarded with ads exhorting them to get their summer holidays booked. By the end of March they're shopping for summer clothes and in mid April they're showing them off, complete with goose pimples.
Which all leaves the glorious last month of the season for those of us who know a good thing when we see one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Its the same in US & Canada where punters tail off massively after Feb, most shops sell stuff at 50% off etc and even the locals itch to ge ttheir bikes and golf clubs out.
No getting over the fact that the bulk of European skiers do 6 days a year in Feb so where is the incentive for resorts to stay open later- they'll get more cash in a snowfree Xmas week than the deepest powder week in April/May.
I would also add that I've skied some very sloppy end of season muck on multiple occasions at the beginning of March so its not that a late season end means all the time leading up to it will be great.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Its the same in US & Canada where punters tail off massively after Feb, most shops sell stuff at 50% off etc and even the locals itch to ge ttheir bikes and golf clubs out.
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The locals had months of snow to deal with, slip and sliding away DAILY. I can understand why they look forward to take their bike and golf clubs out.
But perhaps not in Canada. I went to Lake Louise in May in their last week of openning. I had to pay full price for their lift tickets!  We did a lot of walking instead of skiing...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, RCR for you1
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FAQ
