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Ski Touring - Advice Please

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm looking for some advice. My partner and I are thinking of having a change from a regular week of alpine piste cruising and we're looking at doing a bit of ski-touring. We'd like to do a hut to hut week, staying as far from the crowds as possible, probably end January / early February 2009. We are decent intermediates with fairly limited off piste experience, but are both very fit.

Based on that, I'm looking for;

1. Any suggestions for good touring locations in the Alps?
2. Any recommendations for good guides / companies to go with?
3. Any tips on kit? I'd be interested in buying skis and boots that would also be good for touring in Scotland, so it would be good to know if there's anything specific to look out for.
4. Any other hints / tips / advice?

Hope you can help!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There's lots of general stuff on here if you do a search but the big problem with your plan is that not many huts are open in Jan/Feb so a hut to hut tour would involve winter rooms. Prime touring season is late March and April. Or you could do a valley-based week of touring which might be a better introduction

If you want to do an introductory course, check out www.eagleskiclub.org.uk who run these (there are plenty of commercial operators who do similar but they are unlikely to be as well priced). I think next year's touring schedule usually goes up in the next few weeks so keep checking. They also do weekend trips up in Scotland which might be of interest

As a general comment, signing up for a hut to hut tour with no experience and intermediate skiing skills might be jumping in at the deep end somewhat but if you're signing up with a guide, no doubt he will make the call on whether it's a good idea or not
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
you could do a lot worse than booking onto one of the courses offered by Glenmore Lodge in Aviemore. They run various ski-mountaineering courses in jan/feb typically - some at home in Cairngorms (so obviously a bit of a punt as regards conditions, and these will be day tours), but also do some trips to france and beyond which i assume would be more hut-to-hut.
A quick google will get you onto website. Kitwise, look up Mountain Spirit in Aviemore, they'll sort you out - brilliant shop
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Arno, hadn't realised the touring season was March and April. I guess that's a weather thing? Also wasn't sure what our ability might limit us to. From your comments it sounds like a valley based week would be better. Would that generally be day trips, back to accommodation in the valley each evening? Will check out the website asap.

barry, Sounds like a course at Glenmore Lodge in Jan / Feb, followed by a trip in March / April might be a possibility. Will check out dates and also the shop in Aviemore.

Thanks.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
better weather, longer days and glaciers are generally a bit safer because there has been more time for snow to fill the holes

regarding ability, the better you are at skiing, the more stuff you can do. that said, there is plenty of touring to be done which has relatively simple skiing. you should, however, make sure you have a proficient side slip and be able to get down things in any conditions reasonably fast. that doesn't mean skiing it well, necessarily. you just need to be able to get down stuff without falling over every turn and/or stopping for rests all the time
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It really depends on how "limited" your off-piste experience is. Did you only do it when the condition is "good"? When touring, you pretty much has to go whether the condition is favorable or not (as long as it's SAFE). So being able to ski whatever condition, be it icy or deep powder, is neccessary.

Touring is all off-piste so think for yourself if you want to do what you do off-piste all day, especially after skinning up for a few hours repeatedly. It's one thing to "survive" it, quite another to ENJOY it. Smile

I would think the often talked about harsh condition of Scottish skiing would be great learning and practicing location for preparing for touring. You get to ski all the worst the mountain throw at you and you gain experience really quickly. No? wink
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
just dug this out, worth a watch - not sure if this is happening again soon but would be a fun intro, plan was to have it every other year. mountain spirit or glenmore lodge will know as they ran it jointly

http://mountainspirit.co.uk/events/backcountry-ski-fest-2006-video.asp

abc, I'm pretty much a novice tourer having done all my forays to date in Scotland so am looking forward to testing that theory out somewhere more remote one of these days!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
barry, that's what I mean. Those who ski in Scotland often would probabbly be well prepared to handle whatever condition one would encounter (and get to ENJOY the touring rather than struggling with the skiing itself).
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barry, Thanks for the link. Looks like a fun event and I'll need to check out if they're running it next year. I can't comment on the telemarkers but based on the alpine skiers in the film we won't have any problem keeping up. The possibility of ski touring in Scotland was one of the big things that made skiing interesting to me in the first place. Here's hoping I can organise to try it next year!

abc, I hill run and race through much of the year, so perverse though it may sound, I actually like the idea of skinning up hill.
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Quote:

so perverse though it may sound, I actually like the idea of skinning up hill.

No, it's not perverse. I do enjoy going UP, though ususally on bicycle rather than skins. Smile

Why not do a few of it in Scotland first then? I would imagine it would be cheaper there than flying to the Alps for a week?

I'm sure 9 out of 10 tours goes close enough to the plan. And it's like a walk in the park, albeit a very long walk and a very hilly (and beautiful) park. Wink

But with big mountains, there's always the small chance when thing do go wrong, say weather moving in faster than forecasted, you find yourself (or your group) far away from civilization and need to rely on your own resource to get out of danger's way. Having the extra reserve, say the ability to descend icy courlor or cover long descend FAST will get you out of harms way instead of having to climb yet one more ridge to get to the more "managable" terrain, etc.

I know I'm a bit too overly cautious, as usual. But I do really want to come back in one sound peice (all bones and ligament attached, sans frostbites) so that I get to go out and ski the next day.
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[quote="abc"]
Quote:


But with big mountains, there's always the small chance when thing do go wrong, say weather moving in faster than forecasted, you find yourself (or your group) far away from civilization and need to rely on your own resource to get out of danger's way.


Maybe Arno can tell us more about that? I was chatting to an Eagle member I met in the Chablais this winter and he told me of two tours he'd been on with the Eagles where they had to be air lifted off the mountain. One in Switzerland I think and the other in the Mercantour. Sound like epics and the helicopter rides must have been fun.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
davidof, i've always made it off the mountain under my own steam Cool
mind you, some people do seem to get into more epics than others...

edit - who was it? just so I can steer clear in future Laughing
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
abc, Having seen these comments and some of the info, I think a couple of trips in Scotland first will be the way we go. Just seems to make sense. I still like the idea of the alps though. Love Scotland though I do, we don't get as much sun as I'd like!

Arno, I took a look at the Eagle Ski Club site. Looks good and I'll definitely get in touch with them. Thanks for the link.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
abc, Unfortunately the Scottish mountains are just as, if not more, dangerous than the alps. The weather comes in faster, being closer to the sea, and much of the highlands is really very isolated. that said, scottish skiing prepares you like no other, and your advice seems sound. Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
RobMcQ, you might catch a bit of snow in Scotland this season if you get your skates on!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Arno wrote:
davidof, i've always made it off the mountain under my own steam Cool
mind you, some people do seem to get into more epics than others...

edit - who was it? just so I can steer clear in future Laughing


I wasn thinking of you being involved, just that you might know of the incidents. In both cases the guy I met said that the group had been warned of bad weather by the refuge guardian before heading on. The guy I met said he'd abandonned both tours before getting stuck as he had to be sure of getting to his job at the end of the week. He said there seems to be a bit of a "go" fever in the trips he's been on. Apparently the Swiss group nearly starved after being hemmed in to a bivvie at 3500 meters for 10 days!

I'm sure it wasn't quite as dramatic as all that but it made a good yarn.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
easiski wrote:
abc, Unfortunately the Scottish mountains are just as, if not more, dangerous than the alps. The weather comes in faster, being closer to the sea, and much of the highlands is really very isolated. that said, scottish skiing prepares you like no other, and your advice seems sound. Very Happy

Thanks for the correct my misconception regarding Scotland. Smile I'll keep that in mind if I ever found myself going there...Wink

Though I was thinking more along the line because he live close enough that he gets to choose when to tour (to aim for optimal weather), without having to lock in his dates (regarding flights) as he would for touring the Alps and have to tour in marginal weather/snow conditions.

I don't do big mountain ski touring (yet) so my "advice" is only of general in nature. But I've done a fair amount of open ocean kayaking over in California. About a /3 of our trips got changed, I would guess. A week out, the long range forecast looks promising and the group formed and we prepared, food, camping gear, packing into bags, etc. Then on the morning, we did our "last minute weather check" and the weather look like it might change...

We usually ended up going to some protected water instead. Some time, the forecast was too passimistic and we could have done the tour. But other times, we would had been in a fight for our lives had we gone aheaad. Not having invested the cost of flights and a week of vacation time, it was easy for us to say "next time", much harder if we've already wasted a whole day getting there and paid for all the cost of the huts and such...

Hence my comment about Scotland being "easy" and/or "better" learning place. For those who live nearby, that is.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc, Apologies then, sorry to have misunderstood you. Having lived there for a number of years, I always found that many people, summer and winter, assumed that as the mountains are not so high they are less dangerous, this assumption has had more than a few fatal results! Sad
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davidof, hadn't heard of them myself - was this recent? there is a club yearbook with accounts of tours so I could take a look if it was in the last few years. there are lots of eagles doing lots of tours (not just official club ones) so i guess incidents are bound to happen. i'm generally inclined to listen to the advice of hut guardians though!

i am a bit of a wuss when it comes to bad weather. the desire to get out of it can have a bad influence on decision-making quite apart from the more obvious dangers IMO
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
RobMcQ wrote:
We are decent intermediates with fairly limited off piste experience, but are both very fit.


Being fit helps a lot when touring but if you haven't got the technique to deal with offpiste it doesn't matter how fit you are. (been there got the T-shirt). Probably better to get a professional to assess / improve your technique before going touring.

I've used P2P in St Anton, Austria for offpiste technique and getting into ski touring (inc day tours and hut to hut)
http://www.pistetopowder.com/

..... others have used similar outfits elsewhere in the alps.
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Bryan Hogg based in Sainte foy tarentaise is a fantastic instructor / guide for off piste. PM me if you would like his contact details.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Arno wrote:
there are lots of eagles doing lots of tours (not just official club ones) so i guess incidents are bound to happen.


Exactly, there are bound to be one or two "epics" over the near 100 year history of the club. At least they had the good sense to hunker down when the weather closed in.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
DB, Link looks good and St Anton is on my list of places to go, so that could work well.

fizz, I may be heading to Tignes next year, so that could work. Will PM for details if my trip happens.

Thanks both of you.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
easiski wrote:
abc, Apologies then, sorry to have misunderstood you. Having lived there for a number of years, I always found that many people, summer and winter, assumed that as the mountains are not so high they are less dangerous, this assumption has had more than a few fatal results! Sad

Thanks for the warning. I understand the sentiment very well.
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RobMcQ wrote:
I'm looking for some advice. My partner and I are thinking of having a change from a regular week of alpine piste cruising and we're looking at doing a bit of ski-touring. We'd like to do a hut to hut week, staying as far from the crowds as possible, probably end January / early February 2009. We are decent intermediates with fairly limited off piste experience, but are both very fit.

Based on that, I'm looking for;

1. Any suggestions for good touring locations in the Alps?
2. Any recommendations for good guides / companies to go with?
3. Any tips on kit? I'd be interested in buying skis and boots that would also be good for touring in Scotland, so it would be good to know if there's anything specific to look out for.
4. Any other hints / tips / advice?

Hope you can help!


Being fit does help. but you need to develop off-piste/back country ski skiils as well. Even being Fit your find Off Piste skiing a new level however you will enjoy Very Happy
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
RobMcQ,

1. Silvretta, Bernese Oberland, Haute Route that is probably ranked in order from easiest to trickiest but all are fairly do able for a competant all-round skier/athlete.
2. Use a UAIGM guide with a good reputation and company. I skiied with John Hogg UAIGM and his guiding was exemplary. If you would like to know contact details please email me your details and I will pass it over to him.
3. Equipment is a huge topic and it depends on what you want to do but it will range from ultra light for fast ascent but unstable on the down hill to sluggish uphill but rock solid down and stable on hucks/cliff drops. I like what I have Garmont Endorphin, Naxo NX21, K2 Shuksan but it is a middle of the road set up and part of me really yearns for a dynafit compatible set up. This is not due to ultra lightweight desires but more for the stability of dynafit bindings.
4. Loads!!!

The following are essentials and could be difference between health and injury.

Make sure that you and your group can kick turn both up and down hill in all and any conditions on any level slope.
Make sure that you can stem turn in any conditions and on any level slope.
Make sure you are fit and healthy enough to ascend at 350m (vertical) per hour
Make sure you are not a crybaby ... this is not a resort, there are no piste rescue, when you leave a hut your only option is to get to another hut. Yes there are emergency services for emergencies but touring is not about taking a break because the weather is a bit poo-poo or overly complaining because you have a blister. There are set time periods when it is safe to ski and one of the rules is that you keep as much as possible to schedule.

Now some general bits of advice.

Take a few instructor led off piste and day touring sessions early in the season, these will really set you up well for the longer tours.
Get the right amount of kit and the correct well fitted rucksack.
If you wish to get into touring then at some point it is worth while doing avalanche rescue courses and crevasse rescue courses.
Realise that certain tours are based around luxury 5* with hot showers at the hut and beer on tap and others are well just wood huts!

I hope that helps, I started touring this year and it is clear that it will more and more become part of my skiing life. I am not one of these guys who will opt for touring over pistes etc as they are truly different beasts but the experience from touring is far more real, natural and fulfilling.

Oh yah ... one last bit of advice, take a camera!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
plectrum, Great info, thanks. From the various posts I'm starting to think some Scottish stuff in Jan / Feb, some off-piste instruction on Alps trips in Feb & March and then try a week touring with a guide in late March / April. Now I just hope we can get all that organised and fit it all in!

Will definitely pack the camera. Smile
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
RobMcQ, Presmably you walk in the hills in the summer ? If not, you get get practising those navigation and mountain skills this summer.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
ski, I hill walk, run and race, including multi-day adventure races, so my nav and mountain skills are pretty good.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
RobMcQ,Great...IMV ski touring is more closely related to mountain walking than skiing, you do have to ski back down of course, and you have the extra dangers of snow and winter weather, but skinning up, navigation and judgement pretty much the same, moutains are mountains even if they are white instead of brown.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
RobMcQ, Awareness of mountain dangers such as snow conditions, slope instabilities alongside route finding is paramount. This year I was being guided and we took a different route from the other parties and when asked why the guide pointed out secondary slopes that could potentially avalanche and triger instability of the slop directly above the 1st route. This obviously comes with experience, hours spent but I would advise using a guide to learn first.
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