 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Global warming will cause ski levels to fall!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was particularly struck by the comparison of skiing with golf and it has headed me off on a slight tangent with regard to addctiveness and repeating behaviours. Both hobbies can be pretty addictive.
I remember learning that the best way to get a child to repeat a behaviour is to reward that behaviour occasionally - it actually works better than rewarding the child every time as it gets bored knowing exactly what is going to happen.
I have been aware for a while that the reason golf is so addictive is just that - it rewards you occasionally - even in a really cr@p round you will be able to appreciate at least one particularly sweetly hit drive, chip or putt.
Skiing is just the same really, the intermitent reward perhaps being the blue sky day when you feel that you are skiing like a dream, the view is beautiful and the slopes are empty - this of course is ineterspersed (for me) with the days that I am not skiing as well, perhaps because the snow or light conditions are poor, or the slopes full.
Completely off-topic I know, but since this is the "stop the boredom" thread and we have already been diverted off into "long chalk" territory, I thought it might bring in other people's thoughts about why is sliding addictive 
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Nick L, yes, and the smoother you swing/ski the better the result.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nick L, Because its a primal child like thing - sliding with the assistance of gravity just like the slide in the playground. Add to that the thrill of cornering at speed and a "nice" environment and why wouldn't anyone rather be skiing.
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Nick L, interesting point - and may explain why I find racing so addictive. It's the chase for the perfect run, which of course you'll never get. You get immediate feedback from the clock when you do get it more right than before - and even when you get a good one you think about the turn you still got wrong, or those around which you could have pushed harder. That provides the most technically challenging skiing, but the opposite end of the spectrum (off-piste excursions) provides the more interesting challenges - can you keep fluid through that particularly choppy snow or that particularly gnarly descent. And of course, in either case, once you've knocked that one off (at whetever level your ability allows) you're then looking for the next one to pit yourself against.
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GrahamN, the beauty of skiing/boarding is that there is something for all of us, personally for me going down the same run and turning at the same place (i.e. poles) would bore me irrespective of trying for that perfect run and irrespective that conditions may be different etc., but each to their own and that is, as I said, the beauty of it.
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I'm completely at odds with GrahamN here I think - I'm not really interested in the "challenge" of off piste routes but see them as a means to an end - access to the best snow and terrain that is just plain enjoyable to ski ie. like a crack addict I'm hooked on the elusive sensation high of the moment.
Some days this means that corned up groomer is better than the gnarliest tooth rattling off-piste.
If deep untracked powder was available on a suitable pitch right under the lift I'd rather ski that for a few laps than hike to claim bragging rights on a more "prestigious" route, although I'd head toward the latter as the low hanging fuit got eaten during the course of the day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nick L,
both one step forward, and a step back... that is the golf analogy, IMV and it is this that makes you come back for more..and more and more.
Very seductive..and addictive, for me
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JT
Curiously though we might have a different take on it we end up skiing the same places.
The drones don't always get there and trash the easily accessible - get up early enough at the right North American resorts mid week and you can usually get in a few laps of peachy lines without significant traversing.
And sometimes you might want someone else to have dropped into a chute first no matter how good the bombing 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OMG, a post from Whitegold that hase a modicum of sense to it! (OK not the whole story, but not a bad start). I think I need a sit down now.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't think the question in terms of weeks on snow, but more in terms of maintaining ones "skiing ability" as conditions change. Three different skiers, one a good intermediate, another "advanced", and a third an "expert", may look quite similar on a well-pisted red run, in good visibility and good snow conditions. As the conditions change, the differences start to become apparent. For me, an expert skier is one who copes with all slopes, in all conditions, with no significant deteriation in their poise/style/ability - call it what you will. Only when I felt I could accomplish this, would I consider myself an expert skier (and it'll never happen  )
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Poster: A snowHead
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| OMG, a post from Whitegold that hase a modicum of sense to it! (OK not the whole story, but not a bad start). I think I need a sit down now. |
but only in the sense that throwing yourself off a cliff will have a result type sense. There's a difference 'tween challenging yourself and being stupid . . . but being stupid is never something we can accuse of b]Whitegold[/b], is it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whitegold, I'm not quite that dedicated but to a lesser extent that is my prefered method of learning a new skill. Hence my first big off piste guided trip whilst still in single figure weeks. Turn...fall..turn...fall...turn...fall...etc etc. Cr@p vis didn't help hehehe. Eventually I hope to stop falling 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Scarpa, GrahamN, IMHO, I don't think so. It's a bit like me learning to skate (in-line). "I can ski, it's much the same, I can skate." Result 1. I landed (thankfully) in a skip. Result 2. 10 years later I learned that most of what I was doing was inefficient and wrong.
Whitegold, yeah, yeah, you're real funny.
If you really want to learn quickly you need to get a really good teacher, then a really good coach and put the hours in. Skiing is not a natural sport. Neither is golf. Nor tennis. Would you expect to be any good on a court if you played tennis for a week a year? I don't think so...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
If you really want to learn quickly you need to get a really good teacher, then a really good coach and put the hours in. Skiing is not a natural sport. Neither is golf. Nor tennis. Would you expect to be any good on a court if you played tennis for a week a year? I don't think so... |
You are spoiling the self image of many who refuse to consider lessons/coaching here
Those who do not train nor get coached are quite sure they do not need it....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| David Murdoch wrote: |
If you really want to learn quickly you need to get a really good teacher, then a really good coach and put the hours in. Skiing is not a natural sport. Neither is golf. Nor tennis. Would you expect to be any good on a court if you played tennis for a week a year? I don't think so... |
You are spoiling the self image of many who refuse to consider lessons/coaching here
Those who do not train nor get coached are quite sure they do not need it.... |
Sleeping dogs 'n all that nevertheless as its summer I'll bite.
I'd struggle to find many people who wouldn't consider coaching but for many people a trade off between the scarce resources of time, money and access to good quality teaching appropriate to the individual occurs I'd guess.
I'll also play a bit of the semantics card and challenge the use of the "need ". If someone is quite competent in their own sphere i.e. not posing a danger to others surely its up to the individual to determine what they "need". Many people don't "need" to carve a perfect turn or slay a zipline mogul run.
If an individual's KPI is having a smile on their face at the end of the day maybe what they need is a comedian or simply to spent the day with mates or family.
If we're talking sheer athletic performance levels and technical skills I doubt there are many people in the world who would say that a coach is not valuable here. The beauty of the human race though is that everyone is different.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| If an individual's KPI is having a smile on their face at the end of the day maybe what they need is a comedian or simply to spent the day with mates or family. |
fatbob's smiling technique is not PSIA-approved
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fatbob,
I don't care what they want to do as long as they are not hurting others... but when they try to tell people that really want to improve that coaching is not required for same - well they are telling porkies and so causing "harm"
It is like the "advanced" skiers that cannot do a simple fall-line to clean edge exercise(ie no pivot/push in the initiation)... I don't really care if they can or can't but I object when they then keep claiming "advanced" skiing levels they just do not have and so appear to be giving people "expert advice"... The deception is poor form for the recipients...
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little tiger,
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It is like the "advanced" skiers
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I think it's much, much easier if you have two levels. Non-skier and skier.
The problem arises when people talk (or post) about their skiing, because most people can't accuratley describe how they ski, and neither can they accurately interpret what other people write. The only way (IMV) to assess someone's skiing is to watch them, or time them (if it's a race).
As soon as you remove the stopwatch then it's all subjective anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, hmm, not sure who the second paragraph is aimed at so I'll ignore that 
| little tiger wrote: |
| ... but when they try to tell people that really want to improve that coaching is not required for same - well they are telling porkies and so causing "harm" |
I'd have to disagree with your first point though. You can improve without coaching - it will almost certainly be a slower progression and I guess some times could almost grind to a halt, but there's nothing wrong with it as an approach to improving.
I barely had a lesson for 10 years but improved steadily over that time. For the past 4 years I've had some coaching every season (only a few days) and have continued to improve. I see no problem with either approach.
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I'm not arguing because surprising though it may seem I broadly agree though I credit people with common sense at cutting through layers of bluster.
Anyone who takes advice from a uncredentialised stranger on the internet about how to ski is like a football manager who goes down to the pub and asks who he should pick on Saturday.
Plenty of people will offer opinions but some may be less than appropriate. it doesn't mean people in the pub should be barred from discusing the football.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
Whitegold, yeah, yeah, you're real funny.
If you really want to learn quickly you need to get a really good teacher, then a really good coach and put the hours in. Skiing is not a natural sport. Neither is golf. Nor tennis. Would you expect to be any good on a court if you played tennis for a week a year? I don't think so... |
You can learn by watching.
Pick a steep mogul field.
Watch the skiers coming down who look cool.
Copy them.
Repeat almost every day for 2 weeks.
Job done.
If you can't learn by watching the best, then you're probably not naturally gifted enough ever to be a cool skier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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i suggest a ski-off between Whitegold and David Murdoch
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alan empty,
I'd disagree... I'd say you just perfect your bad habits - making real advancement that much harder in the long run.... As I've said before I've never reached a plateau yet - and I have plenty more reasons than most folks to have leveled out pretty early in ski technique terms. It is just not that likely that you will stumble on what you need to do to improve - if you really knew you would probably be doing it. I can only say that there have been plenty of times I have understood the theory pretty damn well.... but it has taken that lightbulb moment when the coach has you do X or try Y and it suddenly clicks why it all has not been working quite so(ah so that is how that feels...mmmm ... let me try that again)....
I'd never advocate a regular person have as much guided time as I do - they rarely need it as they have better self feedback- but most folks have relatively poor ideas of what they are trying to do... and they won't get any without any coaching! Practice time is then required to get the new stuff embedded - but even the practice needs some supervision from time to time or it risks going back to the old bad habits....
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob,
agree - or people who buy some skis because a self professed "advanced skier" tells them to... I've seen folks rave about how skis carve and you pretty well know they have never carved clean arc to arc turns....
I skied with one guy who kept telling me how his skis just hook up and how fast he skied... told my coach how to ski... etc etc... He only started to shut up after I whooped his back bottom in a Nastar racecourse... Then he worked it out - he just needed my skis
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger, I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, but surely it depends on someone's goals?
If a person wishes to iron out every fault in their skiing and wants to be the best skier that time/skill/fitness/money etc will allow, then, yeah, you may be right (at least for the vast majority of people).
However, that's not everyone's goal and why should it be? There are plenty of people who are safe on the mountain, who are happy with their current level and who are slowly improving. That may not be "real advancement" in your eyes but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Not everyone is striving for perfect technique.
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Poster: A snowHead
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alan empty,
true... but when folks ask how to improve and they are told to just go ski and skip the coaching they are being misled.... If they don't want to improve it is another matter... but one would think they don't ask how to get better unless they actually want to...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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little tiger,
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skied with one guy who kept telling me how his skis just hook up and how fast he skied... told my coach how to ski... etc etc... He only started to shut up after I whooped his back bottom in a Nastar racecourse... Then he worked it out - he just needed my skis
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Great story. Did you let him use your skis, and the beat him anyway ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ski, Nah he did not fit in my bindings... but it would not have made any difference.... He just was a terrible skier- could not carve anything except his roast dinner! I'm no great star skier - but I could run cleanly through a set of Nastar gates - technique versus sheer aggression - technical skills won out!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, I think that nearly everyone on here would agree that more instruction leads to better skiing (or good instruction does).
I would guess that most of the comments you refer to are attempts to balance the idea that someone needs to undertake coaching all of the time and obsess about the minutae of technique. Being "told to just go ski" is probably more beneficial for many people than standing at the top of a run trying to remember which of the 132 tips they've picked up from BZK they should be focussing on first
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alan empty, nah they directly contradicted advice to alternate practice and coaching eg to take a lesson or two in every week or so... and they pretty much mirrored whitegolds effort...
and yes I agree with you - the quality of the instruction is all important... I had an awful experience with a PSIA2.... other than that I mostly hit the jackpot - scoring APSI3 examiners, CSCF race coaches, Italian team coaches, etc etc.... Conversely most of them enjoyed teaching me - because I work at improving not just say I want to be better(and waiting for the magic wand)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| little tiger wrote: |
I'd never advocate a regular person have as much guided time as I do - they rarely need it as they have better self feedback.
...
I can only say that there have been plenty of times I have understood the theory pretty damn well.... but it has taken that lightbulb moment when the coach has you do X or try Y and it suddenly clicks why it all has not been working quite so(ah so that is how that feels...mmmm ... let me try that again)....
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I think that's the best reason for having less lesson time: one need the time between lessons to reflect and self feedback to re-enforce what one learned during coaching sessions.
And individuals who are better or worse at self-feedback would need different amount of such re-enforcement time.
For example, the "standard" of all morning lesson and all afternoon free skiing might be too much lesson for one but not enough lesson for another. I, for one, prefer all day lesson for 2-3 days followed by the same amount of free skiing time! (and then spend the rest of the season enjoying just skiing around NOT improving singificantly ) Others might find all day lesson a waste of time. For them, 2 hrs every other day is plenty to achieve significant improvement.
(BTW, I often take what I learn in lessons to the moguls as whitegold suggest. If I couldn't do what I thought I mastered on moguls, well, I hadn't really "got it" yet. Time for more lessons)
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little tiger,
I'm afraid you'd hate me, as I've have had no lessons/coaching for my downhill skiing, though I have had some coaching for crosscountry. Still I can do mostly what I want in the downhill and my skiing has definitely been improving over the years.
Anyway tomorrow we'll see how my xc has improved (or not ) as judged by the one objective standard - the stopwatch as I'm racing tommorrow. I can compare times with races over the same course last year.
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Arno, I'm up for it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| i suggest a ski-off between Whitegold and David Murdoch |
To make it more interesting I suggest we add the competing distractions of a sunny terrace with an open bottle of wine halfway down the slope for Mr Murdoch and maybe a Hollywood starlet in a fur cost for Whitegold (well he/she does seem to like Aspen).
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| fatbob wrote: |
| a Hollywood starlet in a fur cost for Whitegold (well he/she does seem to like Aspen). |
i think the fur coat is the thing - (s)he's also a big fan of St Moritz
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FAQ
they need that reassurance, funnily enough..
