 Poster: A snowHead
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| Agenterre wrote: |
However, currently. if I were a new  I would be concerned that so many seemingly experienced skiers can not agree on best practice , especially when it is clearly set out in FIS rules. |
Ah, but it isn't. Nowhere in the FIS rules does it say that you can or can't audiably alert others to your presence. It says....
1) Be considerate of other skiers. (NOTE, not just other skiers below you - this would include being considerate to those wishing to pass)
2) Control your direction and speed of travel, taking account of the terrain, snow, weather and traffic conditions. (NOTE, again, no reference to only those above others having to do this)
3) Select an appropriate path. If you are skiing behind someone it’s your responsibility to ski around them without causing any danger to them. (NOTE, making a noise is not necessarily causing danger to anyone)
4) Overtaking - may be done from above or below to the left or the right, as long as the person overtaking allows sufficient space for movements of the person he is passing (NOTE, doesn't say anything about how close you can go to them)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, agreed
The idea that there is one truth here which will apply to every situation, every combination of snow users, every climatic condition etc is transparently wrong.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elizabeth B, Agreed ... but if 'Beginners/Novices' , recent ones ( at least on this thread) and their instructors ( Rob) concur and advise that noise from 'passing' skiers does constitute increased danger what would you advise? Keep on shouting? BTW -- I accept JT's point of view when applied to a 'considered' situation.
Hurtle Please stick to the substance ..
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Elizabeth B,
3) Select an appropriate path. If you are skiing behind someone it’s your responsibility to ski around them without causing any danger to them. (NOTE, making a noise is not necessarily causing danger to anyone)
but if you have to warn some one to get past them, then you have not selected an approriate path, maybe? and announcing to a novice 'coming right' is just as likely to startle them than help them, maybe ??
similarly with point 4 if you are warning someone that you are passing it is evident that you worried about skiing around them safely?? effectively what you are saying is do not follow your normal path or movement, stay to one side so i can pass
4) Overtaking - may be done from above or below to the left or the right, as long as the person overtaking allows sufficient space for movements of the person he is passing (NOTE, doesn't say anything about how close you can go to them)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agenterre,
The point has repeatedly been made that 'shouting' is not what this is about. rob@rar has said that he has never, knowingly, frightened anyone by skiing past them. For my part, I have never knowingly frightened anyone on the very rare occasion when I have elected, gently and politely, to make them aware of my presence, and of the side on which I am intending to overtake them.
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Please stick to the substance ..
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That too is both meaningless and offensive.
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how does any one know whether or not they have knowingly frightened some one, unless they are a mind reader or the person panics and falls right in front of them 
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Hurtle, You may not have knowingly frightened anyone .. my problems always happen(ed) as/after they had pass(ed).. a quick skier / boarder would not even have been aware of what was going on in my brain and the consequent control issues and incidents. I hope I remain concious of those memories as I (hopefully) improve.
Not meaning to be offensive ... many apologies if you interpret my words like that  ]]
btw .. your quote re:shouting is 'selective' and out of context .."Keep talking/shouting" would have been appropriate from me , but you're more than able to take the general sentiment as opposed to the specific words.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 16-05-08 15:38; edited 1 time in total
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rayscoops, or catches up with them at the lift and gives them a random gobful of abuse, much to their bewilderment, no doubt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| but if you have to warn some one to get past them, then you have not selected an approriate path, maybe? |
It's not warning them so you can get past them....more letting them know where about you are. If I hear the scraping of edges on ice behind, I know someone is there, but can't always work out where, without looking. A voice or pole click helps me to identify where they are in relation to me, so that I can follow rules 1 & 2 and be considerate to my fellow slope user and not put them in any danger.
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Some people just frighten (or at least startle) easily. I frighten no end of walkers on my bike, when I slow right down and politely request that they give me a little room to pass from about 10 yards. It's not as if they're novice walkers or anything.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, But neither 'Ray' nor I fall into the 'easily frightened' bracket .... I have never been as gung-ho as I would have been as a 20 yo learning but neither am I the tail-end Charlie.
PS -- Don't you have a bell? 
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rayscoops, you're confusing what I am saying. I don't usually say anything. If, however I am the downhill skier, I prefer it when others do.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Agenterre, not meaning to suggest you or anyone here scares easily - I haven't read the thread closely - but some people do.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Elizabeth B, ah, I see, I do not particularly mind it when I am 'pole clicked' but it really depends on my mood and if I have my grumpy head on, and I suspect you are not a novice either then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Also, rob@rar has, as he has very sweetly admitted, been doing some winding up himself. |
Not winding up as such, just continuing to make essentially the same point long after I would normally have given up, because I'm in a bit of an impish mood. The point I'm making I take fairly seriously.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rayscoops, I'm not a novice on skis, but definitely am on my board. If someone is going to pass me, I'd much rather panic and wipe out into a bank of snow than into the line that they are skiing. It's just self preservation. I hate tracks on the board as I struggle to go straight and worry about catching an edge....so yes, I am speaking from experience.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Elizabeth B, to avoid catching an edge keep the board on an edge, narrow flat tracks are one of the hardest things for a novice boarder to master.
rob@rar, I think your point is a good one, carry on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, it has that in common with most of the rest of the thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rayscoops, fine, I'll leave you to your usual brilliant style of debating. I would just mention, in conclusion, that almost my first post in response to rob@rar said that I understood (and, implicitly, that I respected) what he was saying. This isn't a black and white issue, nor is it one that lends itself to sophistry.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Elizabeth B, Sometimes we all seem to be discussing slightly different situations on these topics so confusion is easy so I am sorry if I do not fully pick up on what you are explaining.
But I thought the whole point of this discussion is that some one passing should be able to pass you safely taking in to account the line you are riding, you should not need to change your line (within reason) to let some one pass, they should simply avoid you. If the path is wide enough for you to carry on with whatever turns you are following and for some one to pass you, then no one needs to let you know they are there, but I would too perhaps also appreciate a polite word that someone is passing even if it is outside the line/profile of my riding, but it would not really be needed because they would be hopefully a meter or two away. The situation that seems to be under discussion is whereby the person behind is suggesting that the rider in front that they should change his/her line/profile of riding/sking to allow the person through, if not there is no reason to give notice that one is passing??
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You know it makes sense.
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| Guvnor wrote: |
| I think it's a similar situation to driving your car into someone's rear end...at the end of the day, the person you crash into can be a complete muppet, be driving dangerously and without due care and attention, but if you rear end them, it's your insurance that's gonna take the hit - and there ain't no amount of bleating or moaning which is gonna change the slightest thing about it |
Not if they just pull out in front of you as you are overtaking them.
But cars have mirrors, so the driver should always see somebody in the outer lane before pulling out.
Skiers don't have mirrors, and don't normally look over their shoulder before turning.
The rules are such that the overtaking slider should not give the other the opportunity to turn into their path (i.e. by giving them enough room that they cannot do so), but there are situations where there is simply not enough room to do that, and where this state continues for quite some time.
In those circumstances, it seems reasonable to me to pass somebody who seems to be a competent slider, who is moving in a consistent manner, but it also seems to make sense to warn them that you are doing so, just in case they were about to change what they are doing.
If it is somebody who appears nervous, or who is all over the place anyhow, then you just have to live with it, no matter how long it takes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| But I thought the whole point of this discussion is that some one passing should be able to pass you safely taking in to account the line you are riding, you should not need to change your line (within reason) to let some one pass, they should simply avoid you. |
I agree......if someone is riding a "line". When I ski, I usually make fairly predictable turns. However, on a track on my snowboard I definitely do not! In that situation I'm into survival riding rather than "skiing a line". Now, I have the right of way. I can do what I want.
But.....I'm boarding along, just about managing to switch from edge to edge. I know that I'm picking up speed and the only way to deal with it is to wipe before I am completely out of control. There is a skier/boarder approaching me from behind. They have watched my turns and think that they know where I am going. They give me what they think is reasonable amount of space - however they don't know that I am about to throw myself to the ground in front of them. I have a choice of two ways to dive......I can only make the right choice if I know where the other person is.
So yes, they should avoid me......but then I'd rather avoid a colision than spend the next few days/weeks/months telling the medical staff that "I was in the right".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rayscoops wrote: |
Elizabeth B, Sometimes we all seem to be discussing slightly different situations on these topics so confusion is easy so I am sorry if I do not fully pick up on what you are explaining.
But I thought the whole point of this discussion is that some one passing should be able to pass you safely taking in to account the line you are riding, you should not need to change your line (within reason) to let some one pass, they should simply avoid you.
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Absolutely.
But the situation we are talking about isn't where somebody is being asked to change their line, it is where they are being asked not to suddenly do so.
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If the path is wide enough for you to carry on with whatever turns you are following and for some one to pass you, then no one needs to let you know they are there, but I would too perhaps also appreciate a polite word that someone is passing even if it is outside the line/profile of my riding, but it would not really be needed because they would be hopefully a meter or two away. The situation that seems to be under discussion is whereby the person behind is suggesting that the rider in front that they should change his/her line/profile of riding/sking to allow the person through, if not there is no reason to give notice that one is passing?? |
No, that is absolutely NOT the situation under discussion AIUI.
It is where, as you come up behind, you can see that it is quite safe to pass if the other slider just continues moving in the same way they are now. But you can also see that if they decided to make a sudden change to the pattern they are moving in, there might not be enough space to be safe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elizabeth B, hitting the deck because you've bottled it is a strategy which you can hardly expect anyone in their right mind to anticipate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| The rules are such that the overtaking slider should not give the other the opportunity to turn into their path (i.e. by giving them enough room that they cannot do so), but there are situations where there is simply not enough room to do that, and where this state continues for quite some time. |
There are very few paths were you do not have enough room to pass. You simply time your move so you pass them on the outside of one of their turns (i.e., they are turning away from you). This can be done on any path which is wide enough to allow a skier to turn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Tricky question isn't it?
I must admit that I literally "saw red" in March on a narrow (and not flat) track when some idiot skied between my neice and mother-in-law with about 3 cms (I was quite close) between his skis and my neice's tails. Not only was he skiing way too fast for the conditions at the time, I had to really work to catch him up for the appropriate bollocking. (The catching up was done outside the congestion zone we'd been in and no innocent parties were endangered - by me anyway). Given that I would suggest he skied maybe 50% as well as I would like to think I do (if you can measure it that way?) he was skiing way out of his safe envelope throughout the incident. He was quite shocked when I passed him emitting a cacaphony of traditional anglo-saxon naughty words.
I reckon you're too close (or too fast) if; by your actions you are likely to scare someone or cause them to take action, could not avoid them if they stopped dead (or fell) in front of you, could not avoid them if they made a sudden and unexpected sharp turn in either direction, or, if they're stationary, you couldn't avoid them if you skied straight in front of you from the starting position.
I've never even seen anyone clicking poles at anyone else?? I don't see why it should be necessary?
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| But the situation we are talking about isn't where somebody is being asked to change their line, it is where they are being asked not to suddenly do so. |
There is not a big distinction between those two situations in my opinion. Requiring (or inviting) someone to not change their trajectory or turn rhythm just because you want to pass them is of no significant different to asking them to change, in my opinion.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Elizabeth B, hitting the deck because you've bottled it is a strategy which you can hardly expect anyone in their right mind to anticipate. |
 I frequently take tactical falls when staying on my feet would likely lead to more trouble.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For the most part "advanced" skiers don't spend their days trying to terrorise beginners or the nervous and have little reason to be on the same part of the mountain as them. The exceptions to this are on cat-tracks connecting vital bits of the lift system and particualrly IME on the "home run" at the end of the day. I have overcome my previous macho aversion known as "death before download" and will quite happily skip the latter because of the pure carnage involved. Does it involve people passing more closely than ideal? - it sure does when you have a mountain's worth of people trying to get down the same piste or track at the same time.
If I do chose to ski down I will try to stick to the edge and move as fast* as practically possible without being stupid simply due to the time exposed to danger principle. Why nervous skier would expose themselves to this is beyond me but they seem to.
*note this is far from fast in absolute terms as I am frequently passed by yoofs skiing it switch to the road or sat on the back of their skis in that particular "look I can straightline a mogul field like this" pose.
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alex_heney, the bottom line is that if you have to let someone know your where abouts when passing them in order to avoid a potential fall or a unexpected turn then you are too close? and this would be the case for any type of piste, I suppose??
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FAQ
