 Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
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I think you should spend some more time with nervous and novice skiers
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But I and others have been making the point that if the downhill person is obviously nervous, or a novice, or a kid, or just plain incompetent, we will indeed wait, to be completely on the safe side. I have crawled a long way down hills in these circumstances. In fact I hurt myself quite badly on one occasion. I was snowploughing behind some kids, at a safe distance, and hit an unseen patch of ice: by ill luck, I slid awkwardly into an impossibly wide, and ever widening, snowplough, which I couldn't get out of and, because I was going so very slowly, my bindings didn't release: result two very badly twisted knees. The kids were oblivious of all this, they were just happily chatting to each other as they skied on down the path, two abreast.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
rob@rar,
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I think you should spend some more time with nervous and novice skiers
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But I and others have been making the point that if the downhill person is obviously nervous, or a novice, or a kid, or just plain incompetent, we will indeed wait, to be completely on the safe side. |
OK, so that's some progress if you are saying that you wouldn't give a verbal warning to a clearly novice or nervous skier (my apologies; I'd missed where you said this). Buy why do you feel the need to warn a competent skier? What would you want them to do with the information that you were behind them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't say anything if I want to pass someone on a narrow track - I anticipate their turns, check they're not turning right at the edge of the track so there should be room for me, and then pass when I think its safe.
In the past when I've had people behind me about to pass (doesn't happen quite so often these days  ), I haven't liked people calling out 'right' or 'left' - is that an indication of where they're coming through or where I should go? It did make me nervous and in looking round to check on them, more likely to fall over. These days, I don't mind a pole click but it is probably unnecessary.
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I have some sympathy with rob@rar's position for the case of extreme novice skiers who are clearly having trouble with a narrow path. But for everyone else I'm also in the "verbal information" camp, with an "I'm coming on your left/right" (hopefully non-ambiguous) in the local language. Rob, remember that the clause you are citing is only 1 of 10. Number 1 is that you should respect other skiers and move in a way that does not endanger or prejudice others, and number 2 is that you should control your speed and line in accordance with ability, terrain and density of traffic. These rules apply equally to downhill as well as uphill skiers. I agree that you shouldn't expect downhill skiers to get out of your way, but I do expect them to make line choices consistent with respecting others on the slope. If they don't know you are there then they can't do that (and it doesn't help if their awareness is impaired by an iPod either)
Taking the "downhill skier has absolute right" approach means it is virtually impossible to pass anyone on a <10m track ever - as the guy in front could quite happily suddenly decide to put in an extreme carve turn and you will have no chance of avoiding them, or on a narrow track a sudden hockey stop would completely block the track. I've had almost exactly this situation once this last year, skiing behind someone else on a broad slope, he suddenly started weaving all over the place at high speed and wherever I went to try and avoid the guy I couldn't get away from him - resulting in me hitting his ski tails and crashing, and him still being totally oblivious of anyone else on the slope. I think it is incumbent on anyone skiing who wishes to make a sudden change to their skiing style to check uphill that it is safe for them to do so - I certainly always try to look beside/behind me before making sudden changes in line.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, you seem to be basing your arguement around what you have observed while shadowing a ski school class. Like Hurtle says, AFAIK no one here is advocating shouting at ski school class beginners. We are talking about skiers who have decided that they are confindent and competant enough to ski outside of lessons - and often we are not talking about tracks on green runs.....the black run off teh Schilthorn has a narrow track where I often overtake people. If they can't ski/ride a flat track, WTF are they doing on a black run?
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rob@rar, cathy, You can't always anticipate the turns of even a competent skier on a track. Some people like to practise their short radius turns on a busy track and sometimes they can be not-so-short radius and what they're actually doing is hogging the entire track for no good reason. Similarly, one comes across boarders drifting gently from the very edge of one side of the path, to the very edge of the other - with the added complication that one of those sides is completely blind (and probably deaf as well, since the boarder is scraping the board so noisily! ) In those events, I'll hang about behind them for a bit and then quietly say 'I'm on your left' or equivalent. Agreed that just saying 'left' is potentially as confusing as pole-clicking!
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GrahamN, what is the "local language" in a resort which attracts visitors from a number of countries? I wouldn't understand a verbal warning if it was delivered in French, and I might well react by trying to look behind me increasing the chance of catching an edge and unexpectedly veering one way or t'other.
I agree that if you make a sudden and unpredicatable change to the line you're taking it is common sense and common courtesy to check uphill as well as you can. I certainly do that.
Maybe I'm unusual in that I frequently pass skiers, novice and experienced, on tracks around 5m wide safely and without needing to issue a verbal warning? I've never hit crashed into anybody doing this, and as far as I'm aware I have never spooked anyone by passing them 'unawares'.
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Another complexity - what if the nervous skier had set off blind just in front of you without looking uphill in flagrant breach of the FIS code which they weren't even aware of?
Do they deserve an "Oi" then?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if someone is in my way, a whack on the ar5e with my pole usually gives a nervous beginner a lesson they won't forget
joke - this thread is getting way too serious
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rob@rar, you seem to be basing your arguement around what you have observed while shadowing a ski school class. |
Not really, although it has given me a different perspective this season. My argument is based on all the skiing I've done (120+ weeks over nearly 30 years) and from that I think there are few occasions when a verbal warning is useful. With novice skiers it can make the problem worse (as well as being inconsiderate IMO) and with competent skiers who will be easier to predict it is unnecessary (as well as being inconsiderate IMO).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
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I frequently pass skiers, novice and experienced, on tracks around 5m wide safely and without needing to issue a verbal warning? I've never hit crashed into anybody doing this, and as far as I'm aware I have never spooked anyone by passing them 'unawares'
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I think that's true of many of us. I can't imagine that anyone on the other side of your argument issues warnings to every single skier or boarder whom they pass.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I can't imagine that anyone on the other side of your argument issues warnings to every single skier or boarder whom they pass. |
So why would it be necessary with some skiers or boarders?
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You know it makes sense.
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I hope not too many novice or wannabe skiers ( and from what I've seen on Bashes there are a lot of us) are reading this thread; the whole could be interpreted as '' F*** You' ...I'm good... and I have nothing to learn. I'm coming through'.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Maybe I'm unusual in that I frequently pass skiers, novice and experienced, on tracks around 5m wide safely and without needing to issue a verbal warning? |
I don't think you're unusual in this. I can't remember an occasion where I have issued a verbal warning...but then I'm happy to ski behind the person slowly. What I have argued is when I am the skier in front that I would prefer to be given an audible warning of an approaching skier who is not wanting to wait behind me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting that some experienced skiers advocate verbal communication. Knowing some of the terrain they might ski and situations they can get themselves into...it is good to be able to talk people through a tricky patch.. Losing height and speed are two things you really might not want to do... so if you carry your speed on a traverse that someone else has lost..you'll tell them you are there.. that way each party knows what is going on. Although in very inexperienced skiers being oblivious is understandable, it is not something they should be protected from for too long. Awareness is good..
I know exactly the situations on these paths... and speed is a consideration for some, so the notion of don't panic, makes sense..rather that a rude blast past... I can see the sense of any noise that makes both parties aware... if it was me in front I would just keep my line or turn going. The person behind has to read and anticipate and avoid...
I think it would be more inconsiderate to not acknowledge the skier in front, but there you go... each to their own
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Maybe I'm unusual in that I frequently pass skiers, novice and experienced, on tracks around 5m wide safely and without needing to issue a verbal warning? I've never hit crashed into anybody doing this, and as far as I'm aware I have never spooked anyone by passing them 'unawares'. |
I don't think you are at all unusual in that.
But we aren't talking about 5m wide tracks. We are talking about tracks only just wide enough for two people to ski side by side.
On a 5m wide track, any competent skier should be able to find a safe way to overtake, unless the preson in front is skiing in a totally wild and out of control manner.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| With novice skiers it can make the problem worse (as well as being inconsiderate IMO) and with competent skiers who will be easier to predict it is unnecessary (as well as being inconsiderate IMO). |
I thnk we have all agreed that you shouldn't do it with somebody who appears to be a novice.
With experienced skiers, I disagree totally with you suggestion that it is inconsiderate, to the extent that I believe the exact opposite to be true.
And while it shouldn't be necessary, you never know. It is considerate to let them know you are there, just in case they were about to do somehing unobvious.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JT, But haven't you qualified that btw? You've inferrred you know the skiers in question / style etc through skiing with them. This argument has been primarily about 'novices', so the general rule should apply.
alex_heney, 2m...5m...10m....100m (it's irrelevant) ..... when I was a 'Beginner' the verbal warning was frightening and meant 'too bloody close'.
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I think it's a similar situation to driving your car into someone's rear end...at the end of the day, the person you crash into can be a complete muppet, be driving dangerously and without due care and attention, but if you rear end them, it's your insurance that's gonna take the hit - and there ain't no amount of bleating or moaning which is gonna change the slightest thing about it
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| alex_heney wrote: |
With experienced skiers, I disagree totally with you suggestion that it is inconsiderate, to the extent that I believe the exact opposite to be true.
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I take the view that if a verbal warning is required the skier behind has already made the mistake of not giving the person in front enough room.
On tracks which are not much wider than a snowplough, such as a single file traverse on steep terrain or a very narrow linking path I think it is far better to be patient and give the skier in front enough room, only passing when there is space to do so.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, Vist skis perchance? ... more importantly "Happy Birthday" ....
( IMV you are absolutely spot on the subject matter as well )
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| rob@rar, Vist skis perchance? ... more importantly "Happy Birthday" .... |
Thanks! I'll give you a clue.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| I hope not too many novice or wannabe skiers ( and from what I've seen on Bashes there are a lot of us) are reading this thread; the whole could be interpreted as '' F*** You' ...I'm good... and I have nothing to learn. I'm coming through'. |
What a ridiculous inference.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, so if I understand you, if on a narrow track (1 - 5m wide) and .............
.....you are worried enough about the person (novice/child probably) in front of you that you need to announce you are passing, then you are passing too close,
.....if you are not worried about them then you have no need to warn them, .....but if you do warn them nevertheless, then you are maybe being rude in saying 'I am coming through'.
seems reasonable to me 
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rob@rar, Joyeux Anniversaire! (That's French for Happy Birthday. )
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You know it makes sense.
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Agenterre, I think if people talk in advanced situations then that habit travels with them...
and my general rule in the path context is to let them know I am there.. If they are doing ok...then I might go fastish on the outside...or opposite their turn... If I think they are struggling, I might want to let them know I have seen them and they might want to know that and would be relieved that I have passed.
If someone buzzed me with no warning...I doubt I would be impressed... It depends where you think the curtesy is..
You call it as you see it..!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rayscoops, that's about right.
Hurtle, thanks for the translation
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've been avidly reading this thread, and I don't get it. I'm probably being quite dense here, but
a) why can't the skier below hear the skier above coming? If its a narrow track, then surely you could hear another skier coming (let alone a boarder). I know I can hear them and usually act accordingly in case they would like to pass me.
b) If we're talking about a narrow track on steep terrain, then what is a novice/nervous skier doing on it in the first place?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| rob@rar, cathy, the entire track for no good reason. Similarly, one comes across boarders drifting gently from the very edge of one side of the path, to the very edge of the other - |
This is often due to following the camber......I generally straight line these types of tracks and passalong the edges if I need to...screaming and waving my arms at the same time to avoid any confusion
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
rob@rar,
| Quote: |
I frequently pass skiers, novice and experienced, on tracks around 5m wide safely and without needing to issue a verbal warning? I've never hit crashed into anybody doing this, and as far as I'm aware I have never spooked anyone by passing them 'unawares'
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I think that's true of many of us. I can't imagine that anyone on the other side of your argument issues warnings to every single skier or boarder whom they pass. |
Correct, no-one ever said that ... it's all getting a bit out of hand
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Charli939, normally you could hear, but the glide of a well waxed ski running flat is not that loud - especially as we all wear helmets these days , and not really talking about steep terrain, just a narrow blue really
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rayscoops, uh oh, now you've gone and done it... helmets??? Mentioned in an already controversial thread... run and hide my friend....
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rob@rar, Happy birthday................
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
Agenterre, I think if people talk in advanced situations then that habit travels with them...
and my general rule in the path context is to let them know I am there.. If they are doing ok...then I might go fastish on the outside...or opposite their turn... If I think they are struggling, I might want to let them know I have seen them and they might want to know that and would be relieved that I have passed.
If someone buzzed me with no warning...I doubt I would be impressed... It depends where you think the curtesy is..
You call it as you see it..!! |
Spot on - the best and most balanced view yet...... nothing wrong with a bit of courtesy although it is hard to find in Brit-infested French resorts !!
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Agenterre, I would strenuously deny that my views (or those of others who have been disagreeing with rob@rar) have been dogmatic, and the argument has - until you expressed yourself as you did - been perfectly friendly. It is offensive to imply that people like Elizabeth B, alex heney, JT, GrahamN, or myself (apologies if I've missed anybody out) are guilty of a 'F*ck you' attitude, just because we have failed expressly to acknowledge your particular experience on the slopes (which I entirely respect, by the way.) Also, rob@rar has, as he has very sweetly admitted, been doing some winding up himself. You have decided that there is a single correct answer to this issue, and that is, at least arguably, not the case. A similar point has been made on BZK before, namely that the pros should agree on technical issues, otherwise it might traumatize the rest of us. Life ain't like that.
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FAQ
(except the 'nothing to learn' bit 
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I would be concerned that so many seemingly experienced skiers can not agree on best practice , especially when it is clearly set out in FIS rules. Argument. debate, wee wee-taking, fun and even 'form over function' have their place on this forum as we all know .. but it would help if we could find a little consensus on the 'core' activities to the site rather than arguing semantics . No?