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British Marmot Ski Racing Club

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All will be revealed! Madeye-Smiley

I just love building up the suspense. Little Angel
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Have a look. All in the early stages at the moment, and once House has finished on five I'll start flinging some ideas around.
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You could look at what support is being offered at MySnowSports.com to see if you have any common interests in supporting kids who want to race.
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rob@rar, great site, thanks for the link. I think they are working at the next level up from what I envisage BMSRC to be doing. I would imagine BMSRC taking strong intermediate skiers, introducing them to racing and hopefully developing them over a number of camps, putting them into a position to take advantage of what MySnowSports offer.
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skisimon, I think you will find that most ski clubs do that.
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rjs, rolling eyes How many of them are able to arrange heavily subsidised on-snow camps led by former WC coaches? In particular, by asking schools for nominations, BMSRC will hopefully be able to get some people from poor backgrounds who may not be able to or may not wish to join a traditional club (e.g. I found it suprising that three of my school's England age-group rugby players didn't actually play at a club Confused ).

It's all in early stages though - it's looking like a cross between a club, race camps and PGL at the moment though...
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skisimon, you may want to check out ESSkiA, they did similar in attempting to get non-club-based skiers into racing through their local schools races and then took the best performers on to training camps whether they were club-based or not. These weren't subsidised trips mind.

Who do you expect to be put forward by schools? Promising skiers they've seen on school ski trips, or those they know can ski well already and probably won't be on the trips? It's a different kettle-of-fish with rugby or football, sports that are played frequently in schools, where teachers will be able to see the performance of their pupils on a daily/weekly basis.
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skisimon, I'm also curious to know how this idea of people being put forward by schools would work? As Sideshow_Bob, says it's not something teachers will see kids doing on a regular basis. And even with heavily subsidised camps being offered initially, is it likely that kids from poor backgrounds are likely to get involved in ski racing, realistically? Even with subsidised training camps it's going to start costing a lot of money (kit etc) - as demonstrated by all the young racers on mysnowsports, who are all being largely supported by their families while attempting to gain sponsors - sponsorship will only kick in to cover large amounts of their costs once they reach a very high level.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's brilliant to try and get more kids involved in racing Very Happy , just seeking some clarification on how you expect it to work.
maybe you should extend to take aspiring masters racers wink then all the snowHead s could get involved Very Happy
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Sideshow_Bob, slightly different from ESSkiA.

The idea was to ask teachers for suggestions from their ski trips. There will doubtless be plenty of talented skiers who can only go on their school's ski trip - parents don't like skiing, can't afford to go as a family, only one trip a year etc. That's the group I was thinking of trying to reach - I've admitted that it's going to be aimed at intermediates who do ski already. The key being that it'll try to level the playing field with those who have parents who can take them to Verbier at Christmas, Courcheval in February and Zermatt for Easter, whilst paying for them to have top tuition at the same time.

Once again though, this particular thread was for this very purpose, to bash out these ideas and get some input on improvements etc.

vivski, The plan is that equipment will be included for those that don't have any/can't afford it. If it proves to be relatively successful (i.e. manage to run multiple camps per year) I will start trying to arrange heavily discounted equipment deals for those with promise who decide they would like to consider competing and as such attend more camps (again, more subsidisation for those who have promise and attend multiple camps too).
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skisimon, an admirable idea, but personally I think those kids would be better off joining their local dry slope club and coming through the ranks training in the UK. From my days on the circuit there were a number of kids who were pretty sheet-hot on the dry slope or at the snowdome but lacked the funding to get out to race on snow. In fact, some of them had never even skied on outdoor snow, even in Scotland. It's these kids who would benefit most from the support.
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Sideshow_Bob, I like your idea, review the dry slope clubs for those with talent AND desire
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Sideshow_Bob, interesting. It was something that had (admittidly briefly) passed through my thoughts. Would those skiers not get the opportunity to ski on snow with their club? It is certainly a avenue worth considering if subsidised camps could be of benefit.
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Skisimon, only if they can afford it, race camps aren't cheap, and then there's a huge number of extra equipment-related expenses to racing on snow. GS skis, correct length slalom skis, catsuits, proper wax... Sponsorship is really hard to find and the kids who were 'sponsored' were usually sponsored either by their parents' own firms or their business acquaintances, but not everyone has social circles encompassing company directors etc.

There was a huge divide between the artificial slope and snow world when I raced, and it was a combination of performance and class. When our school (a comp) won the national schools champs (both team and individual) we weren't invited to the snow-based Schoolboys Races, despite our competitors having superior points and performances (both dendix and snow) to most who were there. Breaking down the image and attitude of snow racing as being primarily for the moneyed kandahar/dho set would definitely help.
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You know it makes sense.
Sideshow_Bob, that's the idea - I heard quite a lot on the EoSB from a couple of sources about the way that ski racing on snow is still very much restricted to a clique type of set.

The hope is that we'll be able to offer race camps at very reasonable prices, and then, as previously mentioned, for those with commitment/promise, large discounts on equipment. It would also be nice for the camps to include evening sessions on things like tuning and waxing (I suspect some clubs already do this sort of thing).

BMSRC will likely never be able to provide the same amount of support as a sponsor to a young racer, but should hopefully be able to offer enough discount/subsidisation that it becomes much more affordable for many more. This discount/subsidisation would be on camps (including transport, accommodation, food, passes, equipment for the week if needed) and purchasing equipment if they become serious.
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Interesting to note that the some of the most successful of the up and coming racers are not from the "clique type of set". Dave Ryding, Ed Drake, TJ Baldwin and the injured Aaron Tipping all came from the plastic race scene. These guys are not rich but their parents have all made many a sacrifice to get their kids where they are today. I don't think that parents whose occupations like aircraft engineer, photographer or driving instructor would class you as in the well off brigade.

Yes - these guys are not from deprived backgrounds but they are certainly not of the "Verbier at Christmas, Courcheval in February and Zermatt for Easter" type of racer. In fact anyone watching the results carefully would see that in the 1986-1991 years of birth very few of the "top" guys are from money backgrounds. There are however a lot of "money" types racing and this helps keeps numbers up and ensures that domestic snow races happen.

skisimon, - This is a great idea but be careful where you put your money - you would not want to give kids hope that they could compete to find out later that they could not continue in the sport. The reason I say this is that even when you reach the Home Nation's teams a full year of training can cost £17k or more. And this does not stop when you get to British Team Level although there is some funding you still have to spend thousands upon thousands to stay on the team. --Should you go down the Skier Cross route then there is no funding at all !!

All I am saying is - do consider carefully where and how, you invest or you may end up giving false hope. I personally know of two racers that never know from one season to the next if they will be able to afford to continue and others whose parents have re mortgaged in the hope that by the time their funds run out they will have attracted enough sponsorship for their offspring to continue.

Hope you make some good decisions and good luck with your venture

- the British Ski Racing World needs more folk like skisimon, - come on folks where are you.
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It would be really hard IMO for a PE teacher to talent spot on school trips as they dont have enough skiing knowledge. school ski trips dont typically kick in until they are teens (which is too late as the kids are too old to "make it" at that age)

I dont know much about racing but seems to me you should focus on the young kids with good dry slope results and attempt to find out if they compete firstly in the snowdomes and secondly in Europe.

if they dont why not? could be money, could be lack of commitment, desire or time... Seems to me most of the good kids started at dry slopes and moved onto snowdomes and Mountain based training. Not all that train in the mountains come from moneyed background but plenty do. Lets face it skiing is a typically middle class hobby as it is expensive and those that are able to go skiing regularly at a very young age will normally have enough cash to train in the UK if the desire was there.

a problem is how do you define need.. racing is expensive by nature and most parents would go for sponsorship or subsidy irrespective of their own fiscal situation. i think you would be hard pressed to determine who has a true need as opposed to those who are defraying cost.
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I know of two youngsters that would love to race but could never afford to do so. This is a very interesting idea but I also think that to find those that are really in need of help may be much harder than you realize. Schools by there nature will be very slow in putting forward students if at all I suspect. Once a youngster starts racing what support will they get, it would be unkind to show them something they could do then take it away again because there is NO long term plan to continue giving support. Poorer parents will not suddenly find money to spend on this and sponsorship is very hard to get. I look forward to seeing if this idea really will works. A few other questions. I do not know who Simon Griffith is, does he have a racing backround and does he really understand what is involved? It says nothing about him on the website link he gives. Is this being run as a money making enterpriase to make a profit like BSA etc or a 'not for profit Charity'?
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jasonc, I'm a member of the Canadian Ski Coaches Federation (now working towards Development Level), the idea is that it's not-for-profit (not many profitable set-ups would subsidise things...)

The idea isn't to support them as such, it's to provide an affordable chance (no guarantees, ever) to develop skiing (to a greater or lesser extent) and then if someone proves to have promise, they can then start looking at something more along the sponsorship lines, like the site that rob@rar linked to. The premise (always changing at the moment) is to be an aid and/or a link (dependent on the athlete), giving dry-slope racers who can't afford much snow time relatively cheap weeks with top coaches (travel, accom etc etc and race camp for the same price or less than a bog-standard school ski trip).

jasonc wrote:
I look forward to seeing if this idea really will works.
I'm looking forward to finding out too! The idea is being tweaked here and there, and with input from other snowHeads who have experience in different areas of skiing I hope a fairly solid aim can develop. A lot of it will then come down to who I can get onboard coach-wise. In the best case, the idea will come to fruition and (with these various tweaks here and there) will help shift athletes in the right direction, from the non-racing or dry-slope plateau towards snow/mountain racing. If it all flops after a couple of camps then I'll still be happy that I'd tried, and hopefully a bunch of kids on those guinea pig camps will at least have had some fun and some decent coaching on snow.
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skisimon,

Great idea & a pretty good new web site. A few comments/ideas for you to consider;

1. Have you thought about Freestyle/Snowboarding diciplines? I think it would be easier for good skate boarders/ surfers etc, who are able to practice/develope their skills in the UK, to transfer these skills into snow events.

2. There are lots of clubs already offering what you are proposing. Most helpers/assistant coaches don't get paid for their time & effort and in fact pay their own costs for club training trips to the snow.

3. Trying to employ/entice a coach with WC experience may be difficult as most of these people already have tie ups with racing teams/groups.

4. I agree with SKIMOTTERET comment about school teacher's inability to 'spot' talent from the school trips. In my experience the teachers only know the one's who go fast not the kids who are technically superior. All our local Club de Sport kids in the age group 10 -12 yrs could ski the pants of any UK school kid, upto 18 yrs old, i have taught this season.
The best UK kid, with potential, i have skied with this season was a 6 year old who race trains at his local dry slope & spent 3 weeks on snow during the season but there are thousands of French kids in the Alps just as good.

5. You mention 'Strong intermediate skiers' in your comments. Who are these? Most people who are 'strong intermediate skiers' cannot 'Carve' a turn. A few camps will not suddenly turn them into Racers

Best of luck with your idea & if you are out in Tignes & want a helping hand drop me a line

Stewart
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stewart woodward, thanks for taking the time to add some feedback.

On the fourth point, the idea has now pretty much developed away from using schools (and with that the 'strong intermediate' bit - quite agree about carving, very few people do actually carve properly, even some that think they do). Partly because of a teacher's likely inability to differentiate a technically strong skier from a fast one, but also because someone (I believe it was skimottaret again) got me thinking about kids who do compete on dry-slopes, so are developing racing skills anyway, but for one reason or another don't compete on snow. This links in nicely with your second point, which is the one I'm spending most time thinking about at the moment. How best to work alongside/in conjunction with traditional ski clubs. Going along this new tack, it would be nice if BMSRC could complement and perhaps even enhance what clubs are already offering.
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There has also been a bit of positive movement on the PD coaching front, nothing agreed yet though. Fingers crossed everyone.

stewart woodward, will definitely get in contact if (or quite likely, when) we head out to Tignes.
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skisimon, it might be worth making early enquiries about arrangements for booking a training lane. I think there are restrictions on who can do this, but stewart woodward should be able to advise.
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Quote:

1. Have you thought about Freestyle/Snowboarding diciplines? I think it would be easier for good skate boarders/ surfers etc, who are able to practice/develope their skills in the UK, to transfer these skills into snow events.


stewart woodward, great idea..... skisimon, does your concept have to be limited to alpine racing? if the aim is to get talented but disadvantaged kids into snowsports so that they can eventually compete i think stewart is onto something...
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rob@rar wrote:
skisimon, it might be worth making early enquiries about arrangements for booking a training lane. I think there are restrictions on who can do this, but stewart woodward should be able to advise.

There are no restrictions on who can book a lane that I know of, I have never been asked for my licence, the rules are here anyway. The main problem may be the requirement to pay by cheque.
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rjs, thanks for the info. What definition of ski club do they use? Does the club have to be recognised by any national or international body, or can it be an informal thing?
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rob@rar, They don't use any definition, the commercial groups are not registered clubs.
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rjs, thanks.
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skisimon, why don't you come down to Gloucester and find out about the set-up there as a first step. Three clubs use the slope - Gloucester and Slalom Plus on Sundays and Thursdays and Western Counties on Mondays. There are also the Gloucester Summer Races League events once a month from May til October, the first being next Saturday, 10 May.

Slalom Plus and Western Counties both run snow race camps, but as far as I know Gloucester does not.

Midland Ski Club is also based not far away at Akers and they also run a snow race camp I believe. They too will be at the SRL events along with several other clubs from the south west of the UK.
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You know it makes sense.
Derek Jackson's post is very close to my thoughts on this. How much do you know about the dry-slope scene throughout the UK, and how that ties into on-snow training? While I think your sentiments are admirable, are you clear where the unfilled part of the 'market' is? There are summer race leages run by Gloucester, Rossendale, Eastern, Southern and South-Eastern regions, and then the Club National, Celtic Cup and Grand Prix circuits. Good (although minimalist) links page at www.britski.org (particularly you may wish to look at the LINKS page, with links to national and club organisations, including ESSkiA) Just as an example, I personally (as an old fart) will be doing 16 races this summer, without travelling for any of the northern CNs, and not counting any of the end of season Champs races I may go for. We had 136 racers from ages 6-60 at Aldershot on Sunday (and Eastern region get over 200). There are also dry-slope training camps run from time to time - Martin Bell did at least one, in So'ton last year, and I've just had a flier from www.ambitionracing.co.uk for their 4 summer season camps. There are also about 8 races at Snow-domes this year. The magazine for coverage of all this is www.racer-ready.co.uk.

At higher levels, snow and dry-slope are very different experiences (so I'm led to believe), but at entry level there's no substitute for time on skis and through gates - and I don't see any way to get that mileage in without regular training at your local club, or moving to the alps and training at your local club there. If you're trying to get people interested, and then hope that they go on to do well, then I think you have to be looking at the upper end of primary school at latest. The level of the top half of the 13-yo agegroup I see on the race circuit is way beyond what you'll see in normal recreational skiing, and that's come from several years of week-in, week-out training by then. The good ones seem to transition from kids-style balance to proper racing style at about age 9 - but there're a couple of 7yos around at the moment who're clearly going to be there by the end of the season. If you're just trying to get more people interested in racing, but not expecting them to get to anything beyond a basic level then age doesn't really matter - except they're going to be completely blown away by the guys in their late teens who've been doing it for 10 years. It's not a big deal for the 'more mature' of us, we can laugh off being beaten by a 7yo girl in our first few races rolling eyes Embarassed , but is the teenage ego going to be able to cope with that for more than a few times? And once you get to competing at the top of your agegroup it does get quite expensive, with travelling to GPs the length and breadth of the country (just ask gsb), and you go through kit remarkably quickly (if I'm lucky I'll get about 9 months out of my current pair of skis).

As for the transition to snow, several clubs run on-snow camps (as mentioned above Western Counties, our club runs one for our own kids, I know of a few others, and IIRC one of our neighbouring clubs requires a commitment from prospective members to spend 3 weeks training on snow a year - but they are remarkably well-heeled). And then for the more serious there's the on-snow academies BSA and BARA (one of our promising 11yos spent the winter with BSA year before last, got himself sponsorship, and he's now moved to NZ rolling eyes ). Some regions will provide bursaries to promising racers, as does SSE to GP winners, although I suspect those are largely nominal. So it looks to me as if you already have a fairly crowded 'market' - but if you can get more money into the system then all power to you.

I know nothing about the freestyle scene (although I think they're fairly active down your way at Warmwell in Dorset), but I think stewart woodward and skimottaret may have something.
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skisimon, great idea, needs lots of thought and development, but great idea all the same.

I note that you are considering developing kids with some ski experience who seem to have better than average ski ability but may not be in a position to develop further, but for me it would also be interesting to see if you can some how target kids who would not normally be involved with skiing (dry slope or otherwise) at all and get them on skis, then it would be a very good effort.

I was at my local dry slope (sounds good but i have only ever been there once !) and some kids with learning difficulties were blasting down the plastic and when I chatted with someone there about them it was mentioned that one of the kids was hopefully going to the next winter (disabled?) olympics or something. It would be interesting to know if these kids get trips to the snow etc. and what sort of support they get to see if there is any similarity/hints etc. in relation to achieving what you are trying to do. Btw I did notice a request a few weeks later in the local newspaper for donated ski gear for these kids, so maybe donated ski gear would be a help for you too?

One final thought is that sometimes you need to trim down what you originally wanted to do in to something much more defined and specific (be that by task, scope, numbers, region etc). It will be interesting to see what comes out of it
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rayscoops, you may be interested in the Uphill Ski Club, now (renamed as, or incorporated in ?) http://www.disabilitysnowsport.org.uk , and http://www.bscd.org.uk
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GrahamN, maybe a good example for Skisimon with respect to how to get this going?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rayscoops wrote:
skisimon, great idea, needs lots of thought and development, but great idea all the same.
Thanks. As much input of the quality in this thread is needed as possible - the more good ideas and opinions I can use/take into account the better developed the idea will become.
rayscoops wrote:
One final thought is that sometimes you need to trim down what you originally wanted to do in to something much more defined and specific (be that by task, scope, numbers, region etc). It will be interesting to see what comes out of it
A very good point. It is, along with my complete lack of knowledge (and indeed lack of skill) at freestyle and snowboarding, the reason why I want to concentrate all the effort into one thing, at least until it starts working (or otherwise, though hopefully not otherwise). If it does go well, and there is obvious knowledge about the 'club' then freestyle and snowboarding are things that I could bring people on to co-ordinate, safe in the knowledge I wouldn't be wasting their time (quite happy to waste my own giving this a shot though).
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Derek Jackson, I'm down in Plymouth at the moment, but may well get up to Gloucester for the weekend, good chance to talk to people and see a big dry-slope meet in action. Unfortunately the Bath match is sold out, so I'll just have to record that anyway... wink

GrahamN, hopefully I can use Saturday to find out where this idea fits with some of the clubs. It's similar, but different from the "ambition" type camps you mention. Similar as it's a week of intensive training and coaching, different because a stated purpose is to give racers who have only previously skied on artificial slopes an opportunity to train on snow, skiing gates on something other than plastic - a variety of training environments and surfaces can only help produce better skiers.

I've now very much moved away from the 'getting new racers involved in ski racing' idea (I really should update the website...) after some interesting comments higher up the thread, and the idea is to now focus on working with those who have already shown potential on the dry-slopes but haven't had chance on snow.
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skisimon, if you're going to be at Gloucester on Sat you should make sure you talk to Stuart Robertson, who (IIRC) organises the Western Counties courses (he's also the main main in the West for Masters' racing - i.e. the 30+es - there's also one or two camps run a year specifically for us, althouhg I've not been on them). You should also check out how BSA and BARA work, and www.thesnowclub.com as well, as I believe they do fairly low budget courses (one of our club members goes on their courses, and races for them in the Xscape series, but I know no more than that).
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skisimon, I will be at Gloucester on Saturday with Western Counties if you want an introduction. I should make clear, though, that I am no coach, only a mediocre wrinkly skier.
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Okay, some good news!

Getting dates/prices firmed up for August's guinea pig camp. It will probably be 4 days/nights in Tignes at the end of August and will be around the £300 mark all-in (not yet confirmed, dependent on transport).

The hunt is still going on for the 'Performance Director', but I'm lucky enough to have a really top coach doing quite a bit of leg work for me on that. Toofy Grin

Derek Jackson, very good, I'll see you there! snowHead Getting the train back up from Plymouth quite soon.
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skisimon, When is your August camp going to be ?
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skisimon, will there be a chipmonk trip too ?
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skisimon, just to check if you are aware that end of August is the start of the dry slope champs season so there are lots of dry slope training camps running in August - certainly through ambition and I'm sure there will be others as well - so if the target for trainees has moved to those already racing on dryslopes it might not be a good time?
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