 Poster: A snowHead
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So I've done 6 trips on piste now but fancy venturing out into the wilds a bit more. Any recommendations for a good company to look at for a guided long weekend bearing in mind I am not the worlds greatest off piste skier..or am I being too ambitious?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DaveB, The title of this thread puts me in mind of "Brain Surgery for Dummies". Can't help I'm afraid, but maybe you could add a bit of detail to help those who know a lot about ski mountaineering. For example, are you an ordinary mountaineer (ie someone used to moving around and living in the mountains?) who wants to do the same kind of thing, but on skis. Or are you new to mountaineering? Have you done any tuition off piste, or been out with a guide for a day? If not, maybe one of the Ski Club of Great Britain's holidays might suit you - introduction to off piste, with some tuition and guiding. Their website is quite informative. Be warned, any mention of the Ski Club rouses enormous passions round here - probably best ignored if you value your sanity.
good luck in your quest. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I ski almost entirely off piste but have never done any ski mountaineering - though I regularly walk up things on skins or with skis on my backpack and have held on to a rope going down exposed steep bits. I've not used crampons and ice axe or learned to rappelle. Do you actually mean ski mountaineering or just off piste skiing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am a relatively experienced mountainer, and a fit reasonably competant skier.
Last week I was going up the lifts to the Val D'Isere glacier and was struck by how epic the scenery beyond the piste area was and how satisfying it would be to explore it under my onw steam. As a mountain biker I rarely take lifts and earn my own gravity. I think I would enjoy it on skis as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Try a day tour through one of the many Off Piste guiding companies in the Alps, and decide if you enjoy the walking enough to do a week of touring or if, like me, you are just someone prepared to climb a bit to get good snow and good slopes. I don't know who arranges Ski Mountaineering - The Eagles Ski Mountaineering just sounds like good off piste skiing to me. No doubt someone here knows.
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DaveB, snowball,
Off piste skiing = lift served (possibly with a hike) to get to good snow
Ski touring = Using skins to go uphill and then ski down. May be some bits on foot (crampons, ice axe, rope)
Ski Mountaineering = (IMV) as ski touring but with the intention of climbing a peak - so will involve climbing on rock.
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DaveB, can't help wondering if doing some touring before doing full-blown ski mountaineering might not be a good idea. I'd try a day's touring from somewhere like Saas Fee - just join one of the groups at the mountain guides' office. If you like that, then I'd try a week's touring with someone like the SCGB or the Eagles - and chat up the guide about something more ambitious - he will doubtless be able to advise.
[edit] just realised that snowball has given broadly similar advice. Sorry - not trying to trample on his feet - this is much more his subject than mine
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 21-04-08 10:08; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski, well, yes, though there are lots of occasions when skiing down the back of something involves getting up to a peak with skis on your shoulder or your pack and sometimes that involves a few steps on rock. I was pointing out that Eagles "ski mountaineering" in the link above would be just off piste skiing to you and me. But DaveB's "getting there under my own steam" would also be satisfied by touring.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I reckon this counted as ski mountaineering:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=26612
really, the line between ski mountaineering and ski touring is a narrow one and (if you were so inclined) could be the subject of endless chat in the pub/hut. i would say it's one of intent - with ski mountaineering the summit is the most important thing; with touring the travel is the most important thing. big grey area there!
anyways... i do think that to get the most out of it you do need to be a half decent skier (ie able to ski safely on steep slopes and varied snow). as you get into steeper terrain, you get steeper, more exposed skiing after you have done your scramble to the summit. ok, you can downclimb it, but if your mates can ski a slope they will get pretty tired of waiting for you to walk down with your crampons and axe
suppose the alternative is really just to use the skis as an approach tool for winter mountaineering objectives, which is fine but doesn't have the travel element of touring/mountaineering
i'd recommend one of the eagle ski club training courses (www.eagleskiclub.org.uk) - the main difference between them and other providers is that they aren't a commercial organisation so it will be a bit cheaper than most others. also, grants are available to reduce the cost of educational courses - details should be on the website
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Brilliant TR, Arno. Yup, I reckon that's ski mountaineering. I've walked up a few pitches like those (but only 30 mins or so) and wished I'd had crampons on. I don't fancy that bit of rock-climbing - I just HATE climbing on rocks in skiboots - I feel extremely vulnerable. I really must learn some proper rope stuff now we are edging into that area.
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snowball, we had crampons for the rock climbing/scrambling - i actually quite like climbing like that. takes a bit of getting used to but feels quite secure (this is at a pretty easy level though). can see that trying the same thing on a pair of DIN soled alpine boots would be much less fun!
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You know it makes sense.
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Oh sure, yes, it's the easy end - but enough to get to most additional skiing I might want top get to. I have no particular desire at this stage of life to become a proper mountaineer.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, snowball, I'm not a climber by any means, I do enjoy a scramble at the top tho' - in touring or (in my case) telemark boots. What does make a difference (IMV) are peaks which you have to traverse - implying carrying your skis etc with you, and those where you can leave skis and sack at the pass, do the peak, and then continue on your way.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, having the Vibram soles does make a HUGE difference when you get to rocky stuff. This year I was using my alpine boots throughout and really missed the soles whenever we had to bootpack. The downside of course is that they're less good for the skiing - I've had to admit last year that my Denalis are probably a bit soft for high performance skiing. If you wanted a bit more security for the walkouts, but without losing too much performance, try some of the stiffer hybrids that are around now. I'm no longer up with the current range, but the Scarpa Spirit 4s werre supposed to be pretty stiff for a touring boot, the Endorphins seem to have quite a few supporters, and I think there are newer ones even more downhill-geared. As you now have Fritschis (IIRC) you've no longer got a problem with getting Vibram-soled boots into a standard binding.
DaveB, I'm afraid I have to agree with parlor. For this stuff you do have to be a pretty decent off-piste skier, and I doubt 6 weeks experience will have got you there. I think I started doing stuff like this after about 15 (and had been skiing exclusively off piste for about a third of those), but was still a bit of a liability and we only went to easy stuff. You've obviously got way more mountaineering experience than me, which will stand you in good stead, but you need to work hard on getting your skiing skills honed before breaking too far away from the pistes/lifts.
As for what is ski touring and what is ski mountaineering - clearly a grey area. My two recent insurances have covered the former but not the latter. The first IIRC defined it as "using ropes (except for safety purposes)" - but what else is a rope except a safety device? Maybe it excluded abseils - but that's normal for off-piste skiing let alone touring, once you start getting adventurous around couloirs. The current one excludes cols, summits or glaciers where you need crampons iceaxe or harnesses - but it does cover glacier travel (which you're never going to do without a harness), and abseiling. Confused...I am.  . I suspect the latter would technically not have covered the Haute Route, or the Gran Paradiso I did the following year, and the former would probably not have covered some of the ordinary off-piste skiing I did this year - despite the fact that I'm sure those on my last trip were using exactly that insurance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Having done a little scrambling round rock in alpine ski boots - and done a lot in conventional mountaineering boots, I confirm in spades how treacherous the alpine boots felt. I was extremely cautious in them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for all of the advice and I probably have got my terms mixed up.
Hopefully you can see my aspiration though, I want to get away from lifts and queues etc.. and actually get into the mountains and it seems like touring is the next best step.
I haven't a clue where I sit in the Hampton to Expert scale really, the only benchmark I have is that I've skied every piste in Espace Killy, and Foret/Epaulle give me the most problems, I stop and rest on those. Everything else is OK and I've been happy in icy, sluchy and powder conditions alike, but I guess experience is everything.
Thanks once again for the pointers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DaveB, sounds like you just need to get out there!
well worth doing some sort of training course to get you used to the kit and so-forth, although some aspects (rope work, use of ice axe etc) might be a bit old hat for someone like you with a mountaineering background
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is plenty of adventurous off piste you can do from lifts or with a short walk or scramble. The alternative to organised off piste holidays is to go to one of the resorts which has an off piste guiding company which will put you in with others of similar standard (for example Val d'Isere which has several - Alpine Experience is good for the less experienced and Top Ski for better skiers). Obviously they need to find your level so you might not be stretched the first day. With a holiday you may be stuck with a wrong group for a week. These same companies also do day tours in the same way. You need to find out if the resort you plan to go to has a company like that - a guide for one or two people is a bit expensive. Cheapest is to make up your own group of 6, as I do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Plas y Brenin offer a number of off-piste, touring, mountaineering courses, see here. Just missed this years courses but could be considered for next year.
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