Angulation

A snowHead

Following GrahamN's excellent thread dealing with, I think, good "stacking" - here's a tip I was given concerning angulation.

Angulation, if you haven't encountered it before, is where you have your upper body angled slightly away from the slope - very useful when edging hard (or indeed traversing). It means that your body mass is positioned for maximum effect.

If my mental image is correct, the combined vector of gravity and centripetal force is acting directly through your outside edge.

Anyway, every couple of years or so I try and have a decent instructor check me out to ensure I haven't picked up any bad habits - which I invariably have.

A couple of years back one noted that I was getting lazy and beginning to lean into the slope. Alright on easy stuff, not alright on hardpack.

He suggested the simple solution to make sure I was correcting this.

Throughout the turn keep your outside pole tip on the snow

Works well for me...

A snowHead

Warren Smith says think "hip & rib", ie squeezing the ribcage down towards the hip. Martin Bell stressed the need keep shoulders/arms/hands level with the slope to avoid the upper body leaning in to the slope which the same hip & rib squeeze. I've been working on keeping my torso upright as leaning in was causing lateral seperation in my stance.

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David Murdoch, another good tip - we have been using that one a lot in race training on plastic over the winter while we're working on improving our posture and position - really does help Very Happy

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David Murdoch, I take it the leaning into the hill and, more importantly, the 'outside' pole tip refers to the second half of the turn. Is this a case where "downhill" is more accurate than "outside"? Good tip.

spyderjon, yes, I'd been doing the angulation very much with the "hip and rib" thing in mind, but I think that was getting my pelvis in a bad position (see other thread) - too much angulation at the waist and not enough at the hips. Probably a good start though - it certainly seemed a very natural thing for me a few months ago - until you can get greater lateral angles at the hips.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

you can actually do an exercise similar to this where you hold the poles like you would a sword then keep both tips on the snow at all times. saves confusion as to uphill/downhill; inside/outside

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I think that turning with your outside ski in the air makes you do it as well.

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There are several Pilates moves in which it's important to bend at the hips, rather than to curve the spine or collapse at the waist. I find it psychologically helpful, in Pilates as in skiing, to think about keeping the torso still and tall, while all the movement is happening at the tops of the legs, where they join the torso. This isn't very illuminating in physiological terms, but it seems to work psychologically.

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Arno, we use that one as well - tho on dendex I am always concerned that I am going to catch one of my poles in the matting - which could end in a rather painful fashion Toofy Grin

GrahamN, when we do the exercise in training we switch poles as soon as we begin the new turn and start to pressurise the "new" outside ski - so to me "outside" seems a better description that "downhill" as right at the start of the turn the outside ski is not truly the downhill ski.... (I think, trying to visualise it in my head sitting at a computer in the office is confusing me! Much easier on the slope on the skis! Tho less easy to consult snowHead

then of course Little Angel

)

vivski, OK, fair point. I was thinking less of piste skiing and more of steeps, where you're not really getting over into the opposite angulation until you've passed the fall-line.

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GrahamN, also fair point! Didn't think of that - afraid at the moment all my thinking on technical stuff relates to the lovely green mat of Pendle Very Happy

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GrahamN, yep, downhill probably more appropriate

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Another variation on the theme - I was told to imagine I was squeezing a big bright colourful beach ball against my downhill leg. Plus the aeroplane exercise

I've a question which I hope that you guys & girls will be able to help with

I have been working on the whole angulation thing and making progress, but I have encountered a small problem. As I've traversed across the (dry) slope, the down-hill ski is lagging a little behind the up-hill one. Not by huge amounts (10-15cm or so) but it is noticeable - the instructor spotted it as well as me being aware if it. It's more prominent when I'm traversing left to right, but I know that's my weak side anyway. It's worse also when I'm really trying hard and trying to make 'strong' turns maintaining what little speed I have

Just wondered if anyone else had encountered a similar problem and whether you could offer any words of wisdom. As I'm conscious of the problem, I'm trying to 'drag' the down-hill ski forward, but it's tricky when you are trying to maintain the whole bent/angled legs malarkey

I'm guessing that it's something I'll just have to work on, but has anyone any tips?.......may be a bit more rotation in the hip/ball & socket joint of the down-hill ski?

As always, thanks in advance for your help

You know it makes sense.

Sleipnir, probably shoulders not level and/or not getting enough weight on your left ski when traversing right. When trying to angulate on your weak side you are probably leaning/banking into the hill and favouring your inside ski. this may cause some scissoring. What does your instructor think is the cause....

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Sleipnir, I'm also trying to stop my outside leg dropping back or lagging my inside leg. It is most pronounced on carved, high speed turns and was picked up by an instructor earlier this season. I don't think it's a particular issue when traversing. Not sure what causes it, most probably just a bad habit developed over the years. Don't have any magic tips to help; I just focus on keeping the outside leg pushed forward when I'm working on the problem. It feels weird from a biomechanical point of view, but from a skiing perspective the edge hold is so much stronger. I don't think that rotation of the outside leg is the answer for you - closing your pelvis (so it's squarer to the turn) will keep you aligned.

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skimottaret & rob@rar, thanks for the prompt response and as always the useful advice

I suspect that my 'problem' is exactly what you mentioned - in fact, it's probably a combination of all of them! Very Happy

The problem was highlighted when I was doing an exercise of dragging the poles on the mat/snow behind you. I'm sure you all know it……it's the one where you have to keep your hands in view whilst dragging the poles behind you - helps with getting the right stance and flex. I had a habit of standing too tall, the result being that I'd be back on my heels and in the back-seat quicker than you could say Bode Miller. Sadly, I don't have Bode's talent to be able to ski like this and often ended up in a heap. As I was doing this exercise with some short poles the instructor spotted that the pole in my hand that was down-hill was not touching the mat when traversing right and then spotted the whole dragging the foot behind thing. It was at the end of the lesson so we didn't really have that much time to discuss it

Am going to have a couple of hours recreational skiing on Saturday so will concentrate on working through this problem. The more I think about it, the more I'm guessing that I'm probably not square on to the fall of the slope and also I'm leaning into the hill, hence the waving of the pole in the air like an Eastern Bloc pole vaulter!!!

As rob@rar says, biomechanically it feels weird - it's just something that I'll have to work on. Now that I know what's wrong and have some possible solutions (thanks guys!) it'll give me something new to focus on - they never said it would be easy! Razz

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Sleipnir, The last thing you want to do is push the downhill ski forward. This will put you in the back seat. Pull the forward uphill ski back.
This will bring your hips over the boots and keep you centered.

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Sleipnir,

Or don't worry about it as you are just about the drop in anyway....

You will position yourself that way as you will feel the balance requires it... on a steep traverse, stabilty is the most important thing.

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David Murdoch, We've been doing that drill in our weekly lessons where, in this block, we are working on angulation, I found it really helpful.
The other thing that I found helpful was concentraing on where I am planting my pole. I was planting the pole downhill but too close to the fall line, by moving the plant down and out I got a much better position.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks again for your input folks. jimmjimm, you are so right about pushing the ski forward which then forces you into the back seat

Had a couple of hours on the dry slope trying to iron out my 'problem'. Tried a few things (as you good people suggested) and made some improvements but not 100% happy. The pushing the downhill ski forward, as jimmjimm said suggested, really unbalanced me and I was on my heels as quick as a wink. I lost all of the balance I had and the result being a couple of far from elegant tumbles.

It's incredible that something so small (only pushing a ski forward 10cm) had such a big effect - really didn't feel happy with this at all and although it got better towards the end of the session, I was probably doing something else to compensate. This is when another pair of eyes is invaluable

Have another lesson on Wednesday and I'm going to try the pulling the uphill ski back technique. I'd like to get it right, but from reading your comments it seems like I shouldn't beat myself up over it and really having a stable platform is more important.....what the expression "function over style!" Very Happy

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I must say I'm a bit confused by some posts above. Are we saying that some form of "reverse foot stagger" is a good thing? i.e. having the lower ski further forward than the uphill ski when traversing a steep slope for example? That sounds reet dodgy to me Puzzled

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Yoda, agreed, angulation drills shouldnt be mixed with a lot of fore aft movements too many things going on... staggering isnt really a good idea.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread folks, but the whole angulation thing is something I'm still struggling with and I'd welcome some more thoughts/advice on the matter.......in particular any more exercises you guys had found useful

It's difficult to pinpoint exactly where/why I'm struggling, but I think it's the whole really getting onto edges thing. Skiing on a dry slope, the dead give away that you are carving (doing a rail turn) is that most of the skiding noise goes away. For me, 99% of the time there's more skids than the Silverstone starting grid!!! Very Happy

I guess it's also having the confidence on a narrow slope that you can (and will) turn if you get it right

I like the sound of the Warren Smith "hip & rib" exercise suggested by spyderjon - I just need something simple which I can use to set me in the right direction (which I can then work upon)

Any more ideas, observations, drills....

Thanks in advance

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Sleipnir, I found this one really useful. On a flattish bit of the slope, so you don't have to worry too much about speed control, start off straight down the slope for say 10m to get up a little speed then, concentrating on not twisting the feet at all, roll the ankles, knees and hips into the turn (it may also help to extend the outside leg to cause the hips to get over). Keep everything as square as you can when doing it and you'll initiate the carve fine. Let the turn happen, rather than forcing it (which would cause you to try twisting the feet) but think upright (laterally, not necessarily fore-aft) in the upper body, and maybe add that rib/hip crunch, which will get the angulation going naturally (to stop you toppling over to the inside of the turn). If you skid, it's probably that you're not allowing the inside leg to shorten, so keeping too much weight on the inside ski, and insufficient on the outside ski to get it to bend into the turn. You can make the initiation more positive by pushing forward with the shins onto the boots. Once you've got the first initiation right, then work on the transitions - pedal, extend the old inside leg and soften the old outside one to allow that to shorten.

There's lots going on there, so if it's all too much to think about, think about each of the aspects in turn, and you'll probably find one of them is a better truigger for you than any of the others. Work with that and then start bringing in the others as refinements. To start with, try hitting the seams of two-mat wide turns at say a 20m travel. As it improves you can get more extreme angles and make the transitions faster (at slow speeds I can just about manage 3 mat wide in 10m). As one of my continuing exercises, I'll also be doing this one myself this evening Wink

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Kramer, quite correct, lack of it is why one wants to put the other foot down.

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GrahamN,

You know it makes sense.

comprex, how do you mean? Do something with the inside leg - push that knee further into the slope?? - so that the shin of that leg becomes parallel to that of the extended outside leg? I was sort of trying to do that, but wasn't at all sure I was succeeding; or, indeed, whether it was the right or necessary thing to do.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hurtle, yes to what you just said. It's a good thing to do.

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comprex, excellent. Very clear and makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Sleipnir, inside leg abduction.

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Yoda, I'd better get those DVDs into the machine, hadn't I?! wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hurtle, he doesn't mention that wink

In fact, quite the opposite, but don't panic Laughing

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Yoda, Aaaarrrgghhh! I'll be lucky if I can even stand upright on my damned skis, by the time I've armchaired my way around all the available conflicting advice!

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Hurtle, DVDs? conflicting? Puzzled

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comprex, Yoda's sent me some material under plain wrappers! wink

comprex, well, let's face it, one can't get too much

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comprex, oops, I think I just managed to delete your last post. How on earth did I do that? Or did you?

Help!!

Angulation

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