 Poster: A snowHead
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This question was prompted by the news revealed in this thread and our own skiing experiences over recent years.
Since we started skiing, Mrs Axs and I have had lessons in France, Italy, Austria, Canada, Switzerland and even the UK (at Xscape castleford). Our oldest instructor was at least 60, our youngest 17. We have enjoyed them all and learned something each time, although some, notably Alan Hole in Tignes and 'Tony' in Austria, have been particularly good.
Talking to other snowHeads at the MSB I was surprised to learn that the ski school in Wengen allows 'instructors' to teach young kids when they have very little by way of formal qualifications. Our Young (English) instructor there at half term admitted that he originally 'blagged his way in' by misstating his age, and although the Axsettes enjoyed his company   his inexperience did show.
Naively I thought that to instruct in Europe you had to meet some 'common standard' or have 'equivalent qualifications' but this appears NOT to be the case (at least in Switzerland).
So how do the requirements of different countries compare? Which has the 'toughest' requirements, France? and whose instructors enjoy the highest reputations? Austria? How are punters like us to judge who we should be taking lessons from? (or should we just search out the BASI qualified Brits?)
From the 'landmark' judgement just given in France it looks like the requirement for BASI instructors to take the 'speed test' (something I've never really understood, - why does skiing at X% of a racer's speed make you a better instructor anyway?) may become a thing of the past. Is this a good thing for ski instructors, for their customers, for skiing? Does it open the door to instructors who (though not as fit/athletic/fast as racers) are very experienced and good at teaching, or will it simply 'lower the standard' in France?
IMHO it would be helpful to have universally recognised standards of qualifications, so that us punters could know how qualified our instructors really are. I would have thought also, that a 'childcare' qualification should be required for looking after REALLY young kids. It's a different skillset from teaching them to ski shirley. 
BTW this is NOT meant to be a 'troll', as I said at the start I've enjoyed every lesson I've ever had, and every instructor I've ever met has been far more knowledgeable and skilful than I will ever be. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the only instructor qualification levels that are worth much are those at ISIA and ISTD level. I'm not sure how those levels pan out elsewhere, but that equates to CSIA III and CSIA IV. By their nature they are built around certain international standards, so there becomes a higher level of homogeny between the various countries.
The Eurogroup (I think that's right) countries are the UK, France, Austria and Italy, and they work towards a degree of commonality between their various qualifications.
The toughest standards are for the ISTD, whichever country it is from. Not all countries actually include a course that is at ISTD level, in-fact I believe the USA don't have a course at this level.
There are some countries where you can get an instructing job, and then start instructing before taking the first course - Switzerland and the USA being two countries which work like this (the ski school in the USA automatically booking you for PSIA Level I very soon after starting). Having said that, I doubt there are any ski schools that would send someone out to instruct without at least providing the new hire with some tuition. Most would probably include a number of hours of shadowing with an experienced instructor, followed by mentoring on aspects of instructing and skiing.
As for the Eurotest. I'm not sure I agree with it fully. Yes, I agree with the arguments that by passing it you prove you are a very good skier, but I don't think it results in a well rounded instrucing staff. The important thing is that you have the ability to demonstrate the necessary drills and skiing mechanics - an instruction course conductor is the best person to judge this - simply being an excellent skier isn't the be all and end all - sound technique and an ability to demo is key. Even some of the Eurotest supporters have admitted that it all but precludes those joining the profession late from making it to the top.
As for looking after young kids... I can only comment on the CSIA, but CSIA I includes a lot of specifics for looking after children in ski school, including many things that you might not think about. This is because it is fairly widely regarded that most people will work with kids before taking CSIA II - it's not universal, and I have to admit that I'm hoping to be one of the exceptions when I head out next year. Ski schools also give a lot of training on dealing with kid skiers. The CSIA manual also has a large section on kid specific issues.
PS. As a little bit of a troll. "Follow me..." is a phrase that I believe is only taught in Europe... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We only bother with lessons when in the Val Gardena Valley with this gang http://www.scuola-sci-val-gardena.com/eng/index.html. They have something like 10 ex-olympians. It takes 6 yrs to fully qualify as an instructor in Italy. The standard across the board is superb. ESF instructors are always of a very high standard. However, when we were in Bansko, Bulgaria I kept an eye on some of the official Ulen instuctors. As skiers, the Ulen instuctors ranged from pretty good to very average. None were anywhere near the standard of the Italians or French. Taking a lesson in Bulgaria for anyone better than an intermediate would be a waste of dough as you'd possibly be a better skier than the instructor.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Surely it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Surely it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?" |
No, there should be a 'standard' across the board. Hence the requirement to 'qualify' as an instuctor. Otherwise it's a lottery.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I was querying the title of this thread, not throwing out a proposition 
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| skisimon wrote: |
The Eurogroup (I think that's right) countries are the UK, France, Austria and Italy, and they work towards a degree of commonality between their various qualifications. |
I think you would be better looking at IASI (International Ski Instructors Association) www.isiaski.org.
The International Ski Instructors Association, known better by the acronym ISIA, is the world body for professional ski instructors. The ISIA was formed in 1959 and there are currently 36 member nations representing the very best in ski instruction around the world.
Membership of IASI is by country not individual and to be a member, that country's qualification system has to meet the minimum standards laid down by IASI. Bulgaria, by the way, is a member.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 23-03-08 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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I mentioned the ISIA before the Eurogroup (which I mentioned as an aside to explain the differences between Switzerland and other European countries):
| Quote: |
| I think the only instructor qualification levels that are worth much are those at ISIA and ISTD level. I'm not sure how those levels pan out elsewhere, but that equates to CSIA III and CSIA IV. By their nature they are built around certain international standards, so there becomes a higher level of homogeny between the various countries. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What skisimon is referring to is the old boys club commonly referred to as the "Eurozone", comprising of France, Austria, Italy (can't remember who else is in this club), but not Switzerland, Germany, The Netherlands, Finland, Sweden etc. despite all those latter countries being members of the ISIA.
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| Downhilldan wrote: |
| ESF instructors are always of a very high standard. r. |
Not in my experience. Some are excellent, some are rubbish.
I don't think it is possible to generalise on a country by country basis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't think it is possible to generalise on a country by country basis. |
Thanks, Rob, which is why I asked if it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?"
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well I believe standards do vary by country ... and even by resort...and more importantly probably by individual. I can only comment on UK, Switzerland and France so please allow for my personal prejudices here. I also believe the 'Speed-Test' is a great concept.
This of course helps no-one in that Wengen instructors teach differently to everywhere else I've been in Switzerland ( 'crap' comes to mind -- but I'm sure it's defensible). The best instruction I've had has been from a Frenchman and a UK-lady ( albeit at different times of my own development).. Quality/Concepts/Individuals ... Frankfully I have no idea !
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I have had great lessons in Austria, France, Switzerland, Canada and USA and appalling ones in Switzerland and France. But in each case it was the woman or man, rather than the country that was important. My last lessons - 6 weeks ago - were with an excellent female Canadian CSIA level IV instructor who had also taught in Switzerland, Austria and France - so globalization is also having an impact...
The quality does indeed vary from individual to individual, but some schools seem better at weeding out the crap instructors and not employing them just because they are part of one of the resorts leading families and can go quickly through gates. Part of the problem with the ESF?? and some Swiss Schools.
The underlying premise of the OP is - I believe flawed. This may be the only time I ever agree with veeight...
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Surely it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?" |
Now what on earth would make you think that?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Surely it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?" |
Well clearly it does, but that is unavoidable, individuals will always vary in their approach and ability.
The QUESTION posed by the thread was (meant to be) whether different countries have different standards and if so what effect this has on the quality of instructors to be found there. Of course there will be good and less good everywhere, but if (hypothetically) it is possible to be come an instructor in Switzerland or Bulgaria, after a 1 day course (or less) and a chat with the ski school manager, whereas in France (say) you need to have achieved a qualification that takes a minimum of several weeks intensive training followed by an exam which has a low pass rate, then I would expect instructors in France to be more experienced and probably 'better' than those in Switzerland or Bulgaria.
Frankly I was surprised to learn how little experience was required to become an instructor in Switzerland. and I think Downhilldan makes a similar point about Bulgaria. I find it more than a little worrying that guys with very few weeks experience of skiing and practically no teaching experience can be offered to adults and young children as 'instructors' (and incidentally charged at the same hourly rate as the guys who have been doing it for years).
My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Axsman wrote: |
| My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff? |
There are common standards across different national systems (to a certain extent) through the ISIA organisation, which most/all (?) ski countries are members of. So there are broad equivalencies across different national ski instructor qualifications. But there is no such thing as "a standard qualification" because there are different levels of qualification available in each national system. As I understand it BASI has four levels, the Canadians have four, the USA, the French, and the Austrians have three levels, etc, etc. It is up to each country to specify what level of qualification is the minimum required for a ski instructor in that country, and they should recognise similar level qualifications from other national systems who wish to teach there.
As for Joe Punter - it can be tricky. If I were going to a ski school outside of France (which requires the highest level qualification, ISTD) I would ask the school about the instructor's qualification level. Of course, this is no guarantee that he/she will be a good instructor, but I will know what level of qualification they have reached. I would be very unhappy if I booked a lesson and ended up with an instructor who had only recently acquired the lowest level qualification necessary to teach in that country. In Switzerland, for example, it could be a very low level qualification. There's a thread on snowHeads of someone who ended up in that situation and was very unhappy with it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Axsman wrote: |
| My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff? |
A referral to a quality lesson giver, from an experienced lesson taker. The referrer should possess a high level of skill, and the instructor being recommended should have played a role in the acquisition of those skills. Low level skiers may have enjoyed their experience with a particular instructor, but they have no way of knowing if that instructor possesses the knowledge or ability to guide a student to high skill levels.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="Axsman"]
| veeeight wrote: |
The QUESTION posed by the thread was (meant to be) whether different countries have different standards and if so what effect this has on the quality of instructors to be found there..........
........ I find it more than a little worrying that guys with very few weeks experience of skiing and practically no teaching experience can be offered to adults and young children as 'instructors'
My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff? |
As Rob@rar says, there is not a standard qualification, but for a country to be a member of IASI, its qualifications have to meet the minimum requirements laid down by that organisation: so there are internationally agreed standards. I'm not sure where that puts lower levels of qualification than Ski Teacher (ie Level 3) Is it the whole range of qualifications which come under scrutiny for IASI membership?
As to the worry of having inexperienced skiers and teachers presented as instructors, the answer has already been given: don't hesitate to ask a ski school to verify the qualification of any instructor offered to you. And don't accept anything less than BASI Level 2 or international equivalent.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't think it is possible to generalise on a country by country basis. |
Thanks, Rob, which is why I asked if it should be "Does the Quality vary from Individual to Individual?" |
It gets worse. An instructor who is very good with 1 guest can be rubbish with another, just because things don't match up between client and instructor.
As for formal qualification and working with children of any age.... The entry level qualifications generally are a 1 week course, and can easily be passed by decent skiiers with malicious intent towards children. Blind trust in qualification to trust a person with children is a very bad idea in any situation, not just skiing.
As for the reference to Wengen... the internal training is a 1 week course, focused on working with children, and the training involves practical sessions with the children of the Wengen school at various skill levels under supervision. First real week is often as apprentice.
As for the demand to seek at least a Basi-2 equivalent teacher in this thread.... If I couldn't work with entry level qualification to experience wether it were something for me, why would I continue invest a lot of money in further training not knowing wether teaching to ski is something i'd enjoy?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff?
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I would think the reputation of the ski school is at stake if a large percentage of instructors are rubbish. So there's clearly incentive for ski schools to maintain (whatever) standard they see fit.
I personally don't believe teaching is such a well understood science yet. So, any decent skiers can be a potential good instructor. A rigid "standard", if set too low, accomplish nothing. But setting too high a standard may simply prevent potential condidates from entering the profession, without actually garanteeing the quality of instruction itself. (or they move to another country that's more accomondating).
(Disclaimer: I work in a profession that's largely "un-certifiable" due to technology changing too fast for school to keep up. If we can choose new hire without relying on some peice of paper, surely a ski school can choose their instructors with reasonable success?)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ronald wrote: |
| As for the demand to seek at least a Basi-2 equivalent teacher in this thread.... If I couldn't work with entry level qualification to experience wether it were something for me, why would I continue invest a lot of money in further training not knowing wether teaching to ski is something i'd enjoy? |
An interesting point - I was forgetting about the new BASI Level 1 - but that only licences you to instruct on a dry slope or snowdome and up to early intermediate does it not?
Successful students will be issued a certification to work only on dryslope or indoor snow slopes. Students will be able to work with novice and early intermediate skiers.
If I read this correctly, the Level 1 instructor gets the experience to tell him/her if ski-teaching is the right thing to develop (before embarking on the more demanding and more expensive next step) by working on a dry slope or indoor slope with beginners and early intermediates. Which suggests that my advice to ensure an instructor in an Alpine resort is at least Level 2 equivalent is valid. Or have I missed something?
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ccl, I know someone who was teaching in Switzerland for most of this season with a Level 1 qualification (which he'd done on a dry slope in the UK). His interview was a 10-minute discussion (in an office, not on the snow) with the ski school director. He taught UK school groups for a large part of the season.
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I'm not trying to get this to be who's the best ski school or who makes the best instructor. These are purely my experiences over the last 5 years. Instruction does vary from country to country, different schools within a resort, even within the same ski school.
I've had everything from excellent instruction through to those who clearly though the world owed them a living!
Regardless of the qualifications, its down to how thats applied in practise, that no different in any activity that provides instruction. It's all very personal as the 'student' is an individual with their own ideas. What i enjoy another will dislike.
The base premise of imparting knowledge and skill is whats important, oh yes it should be enjoyable (fun) as well. If any of these are missing then they've failed. What recourse though? Only to complain.... they certainly wont get your money back! Maybe thats what wanted but I dont think the businesses have the guts to offer that!
All the following were at the same resort, 2 ski schools. In the phase after basic turns but before off piste.
1) Male, nationality:New Zealander?, early 20's, group size 10, wanted to spend all the time going over jumps, off the edge of the piste. Oh, very attentive to the 2 girls in the group. Skills learnt none. Complained ended up with No.2
2) Male mid 30's, nationality: British same ski school as No.1, group size 8, excellent instruction. Learnt lots, hard work but also fun! Even followed up with 2 private afternoon lessons as a result of the morning teaching.(found out later he was actually the head instructor).
3) Male late 40's\ early 50's, nationality: French, group size 8 /10, thorough explanations, demonstrations, practicals, debriefing. Leant lots!
4) Female, nationality: French, mid 30's, as with No. 2, quality instruction
5) 2 male instructors, nationality: British, early 20's, group size 14, turned out one was a trainee, big mistake, no cohesion in the too large a group, another transfer requested.
FYI, Resort was Courchevel, Ski Schools for each:-
Nos. 1,2 and 5 was New Generation
Nos. 3 and 4 - Magic In Motion
They could all ski rings round me, but a couple clearly couldnt communicate with the class. What dissapointed me was inconsistant standards, they were all trying to do the same level of instruction. Those that came out best were the more mature, rounded individuals, rather than the characters!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ccl wrote: |
If I read this correctly, the Level 1 instructor gets the experience to tell him/her if ski-teaching is the right thing to develop (before embarking on the more demanding and more expensive next step) by working on a dry slope or indoor slope with beginners and early intermediates. Which suggests that my advice to ensure an instructor in an Alpine resort is at least Level 2 equivalent is valid. Or have I missed something? |
Don't think you missed anything in the rules 
Why would you expect any less quality tuition on a dryslope then in resort?
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
5) 2 male instructors, nationality: British, early 20's, group size 14, turned out one was a trainee, big mistake, no cohesion in the too large a group, another transfer requested.
FYI, Resort was Courchevel, Ski Schools for each:-
Nos. 1,2 and 5 was New Generation
Nos. 3 and 4 - Magic In Motion
They could all ski rings round me, but a couple clearly couldnt communicate with the class. What dissapointed me was inconsistant standards, they were all trying to do the same level of instruction. Those that came out best were the more mature, rounded individuals, rather than the characters! |
14  ?
Thats too large a group even if you had instructor number 2.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| 14 ? Thats too large a group even if you had instructor number 2. |
Yes , I do know that now! However, it was put to the group vote at the start of the day. Before we understood what the set up really was! "We'd like to suggest we combine....." "Is every one happy with that?" It started with 6 , then a few late commers also added to the numbers. In reality a complete waste of a days instruction!  Well, really a few hours, but the day is organised around it!
As i said, never again New Generation other than private instruction with a more mature or recommended instructor!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
What recourse though? Only to complain.... they certainly wont get your money back! Maybe thats what wanted but I dont think the businesses have the guts to offer that!
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You get or money back here, or a replacement lesson FOC etc. Customer satisfaction is priority.
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| The base premise of imparting knowledge and skill is whats important, oh yes it should be enjoyable (fun) as well. |
| little tiger wrote: |
| Axsman wrote: |
| My question remains, without a (Europe wide) agreed standard qualification, how can Joe Punter sort the wheat from the chaff? |
A referral to a quality lesson giver, from an experienced lesson taker. The referrer should possess a high level of skill, and the instructor being recommended should have played a role in the acquisition of those skills. Low level skiers may have enjoyed their experience with a particular instructor, but they have no way of knowing if that instructor possesses the knowledge or ability to guide a student to high skill levels. |
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Quote: |
What recourse though? Only to complain.... they certainly wont get your money back! Maybe thats what wanted but I dont think the businesses have the guts to offer that!
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You get or money back here, or a replacement lesson FOC etc. Customer satisfaction is priority. |
Yep my home ski school always provided replacement lessons Free Of Charge if I was less than happy with any instruction. They would use regular students like me to "group" newer(to the school) instructors into "fits client style" groups when they were allocating private lessons to such instructors. It was very important to them to hear ALL my feedback on any lesson, but especially with a new instructor. I fail to understand those that think they can run a customer service business where the customer feedback is ignored or belittled as less than important.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Except in France where there is quite a high minimum level of skiing at least (there may be other countries/regions eg Andorra/Aosta where there's some sort of bar to get over but France has the most substantive one that I know of), the lowest level instructor in any country will always be of a variable standard which may be very low in terms of both skiing and instructing. This lowest tier with the exception of France is intended to be low-paid, low-skilled (only intended to teach beginners and early intermediates at a push) and is therefore necessarily inclusive (a doddle to pass). I was frankly shocked by the skiing level of some of the (presumably) anwarters young and older I saw in Austria recently. I'd like to think that every BASI Level 2 (as opposed to old Grade 3) would be of a higher standard. Also BMF Skier's experience is testament to achievement of the top Eurogroup ski pro cartel level being no guarantee of making a good instructor.
How to get a good instructor? If you're a fairly accomplished skier, in France I'd always go for a British ski school where available, though as BMF Skier found out, this still doesn't guarantee attitude (does success in the Eurotest breed arrogance? that's another thread). If elsewhere, specify a top level instructor, for whatever country you're in. It's the only way to maximise your chances without a personal recommendation.
As an aside, the Eurogroup includes not just the UK, France, Austria, Italy, but also Germany, the Netherlands, Ireland at least one Scandinavian nation, at least one Central European nation and a couple of others. Next time you meet someone with ISTD or equiv, ask to look at their card - each of the member nations' ski assoc emblems are on it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I posted this point on another thread but everyone seems to think that in France you MUST be an ISTD to teach.
That is wrong, there are loads of instructors within training centre ski schools learning and moving up the ladder while they teach. They start at Level 1 "first Cycle" and go through to their level 4 "National" or ISTD
As a beginner you are very likely to get a L2 or L3 instructor teaching you if you go with a larger ski school that has trainees on their books like the ESF or Magic Academy. First cycles are normally shadowing or assisting larger groups.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Its funny being a great skier does not mean you are going to be a great instructor Basically a weak skier with an ability to impart knowledge would be better than a great skier who can not impart any of his knowledge. I love the local Austrians as they just dont complicate things and teach people to ski very naturally.
The important thing about an instructor is the ability to instruct and to people manage. I think most of the developed countries have a fairly high standard but the likes of Bulgaria the standard will be a little lower.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ordhan, would you not be worried about a great teacher teaching you rubbish extremely well? I've certainly had that in the past: one of my more enjoyable weeks in ski school because the guy made it so much fun, but he actually taught me more bad habits than I already had at the start of the week!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Ordhan, would you not be worried about a great teacher teaching you rubbish extremely well? I've certainly had that in the past: one of my more enjoyable weeks in ski school because the guy made it so much fun, but he actually taught me more bad habits than I already had at the start of the week! |
I had that experience too , In Italy with 'Magio'. A fantastic guy, must have been over 60, skied with incredible 'style', ankles bolted together, 'bend ze knees' 'plant your pole' all that stuff. We both really enjoyed our lessons, but later (having had more 'modern' instruction), realised that the techniques he was demoing and teaching us might not have been all that up to date. It was still fun though 
(And even now, I'd give my right, er, ski pole ( ) to be able to ski half as well as him. )
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Axsman, it's that kind of stuff which the current qualification system really should try to stop happening in the future. It's just not good!
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| Axsman wrote: |
*Should've stuck with Magio, he looked GOOOOD!  |
I'm sure he did, skiing slowly (for him) on gentle pistes. Bet he wouldn't have looked like that if he had been skiing, fast, steep or deep. Why should you be short-changed just because your instructor is skiing at 10% of their capacity?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Axsman, 
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FAQ
