 Poster: A snowHead
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Friends have just come back from Meribel and their 9 year old son shared a snowboarding instructor with 12 other children; the class was booked with ESF through Inghams. I was shocked. Between them, my kids have had nearly 20 weeks of instruction and the largest class that I can remember had 6 children in it including mine.
How big is too big? Can kids really learn effectively in a class of 13? Can one instructor safely supervise that many children? What's an acceptable maximum class size before you should demand a refund? Should you take children to a resort where the ski school doesn't have an acceptable policy on the matter?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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8 is comfortable, 10 max.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonny Jones, the usual limit for boarding with the ESF is eight per instructor - that's what we're allocated when we book instructors for groups.
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Jonny Jones, 8 is max I have seen, though many at peak times will go to 10 but 13 is stupid
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was told that for Club Med the ESF have different rules. I asked after seeing a class of 18 skiers, kids, on the mountain 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Friend of mine did a season teaching in Japan and she had classes of 30 or 40.
I wouldn't be happy with any more than 10.
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So 13 really is exceptional, then. I hoped so.
The question about safety answers itself, as the instructor actually lost the 9-year old one day. He didn't seem to be aware that there was a problem, but the parents noticed the child was missing when they passed the class on the slopes. He was eventually found by the parents, terrrified and alone.
The incident occurred quite early in the holiday and they obviously withdrew him from the class. But the TO has the view that nothing was wrong and refuses to countenance any credit for the unused days.
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Jonny Jones, I don't understand the credit bit? Sounds like they want money more than concern for the loss of a 9 year old on the slopes. Personally if it was my 9 year old they had lost I woud be seeing a solicitor not seeking credit for 'unused days'.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've seen 15 children with the ESF
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thefatcontroller, presumably the point of seeing a solicitor is to get even more money. If they think that the ESF was criminally negligent, they should be speaking to the cops, and presumably they realise that that would be a real waste of time. In the real world, money back and maybe an apology is the best they'll get.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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richmond, Yep more money, I have done it before and it works. Make them suffer, losing a child is not something they want publicity for.
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If it had been my kid, my relief at finding the child alive and unharmed would have far outweighed any desire that I might have for compensation. Legal action claiming criminal negligence might yield a few pennies at the mental cost of repeatedly dredging over a traumatic event that I'd rather forget. But the thought that someone had actually benefited financially from their negligence (ie they'd been paid for lessons that they hadn't delivered) would be a little too much to swallow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Jonny Jones, So they want money but they don't want money  If you think what they did was wrong and want them to change then go legal, if you go for a few bob back then it will happen again and it could have tragic consequences. Its your call but losing a 9 year old is not acceptable and they will not learn from your course of action.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have spoken to instructors that have lost kids in small groups. They were mortified, and generally the kid had done something daft, or not followed instruction. The kid was fine, but upset. Get over it, move on.
A refund for lessons, perhaps, but what steps did the parentds take to iron out the proble with the ski school. A bit of knowledge is very useful and I would only suggest to friends that they use a school that guarantees a maximum number in a class.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Frosty the Snowman,
As a kid, I got "lost" by my ESF instructor. Fell over when at the back of the "queue", no-one noticed, by the time I was up again I'd lost the group.
It did not really worry me. I was about 9/10 but already fairly confident so spent the next hour or so skiing on my own then went to meet my parents at the ESF meeting point. They went mental when I told them and confronted the ESF instructor. She denied everything, saying that I went off on purpose.. 
Next morning, she had a go at me in front of the group, calling me liar... To this day, I wish I'd had the balls to just ski off that day... 
Everybody makes mistakes and if the instructor was apologetic and genuinely mortified there is no real point for going after them but in some cases, where they won't take responsibility for those mistakes, then going after them is good thing...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| richmond, Yep more money, I have done it before and it works. Make them suffer, losing a child is not something they want publicity for. |
Fair enough, but you were berating the parents for caring more about money than their kid.
If you take a group of kids skiing, sooner or later you will lose one. If you take a group of 13 kids skiing, it'll be sooner rather than later. I'm sure ESF know this and factor it into their business model. They might well pay up a bit more for a quiet life, which is fine, but it won't stop them doing it again. If they were worried about it, they wouldn't operate such large classes.
It's character building for the kids, anyway. Nothing like being on your own at the top of a steep slope with no idea where to go to test your resources.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There should be no more than 10 in a class in my opinion, As an unstructor I hate to see more than that in a class especially in a dry slope / snowdome context. Is this somthing Ski Schools could sell themselves on classes of no more than 8?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Kruisler, richmond, If they had said fine and apologised and refunded the lost days instructing thats ok but as they seem to want to dig their heels in then its war
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The most competent, caring and careful instructor will occasionally lose a child. That's life.
But this case was something different. I don't believe that it's possible for one person to safely supervise 13 primary school children - especially in a large and busy resort like Meribel. I'd be interested to know what requirements British schools have for adult / child ratios on day trips.
The instructor's attitute was a little alarming, too. When the parents asked where their child was, he casually shrugged his shoulders and suggested that if the missing kid had any sense, he might have made his way to the ski school. He wasn't remotely concerned - losing children seemed to be as natural an event as carving a turn.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
When the parents asked where their child was, he casually shrugged his shoulders and suggested that if the missing kid had any sense, he might have made his way to the ski school. He wasn't remotely concerned - losing children seemed to be as natural an event as carving a turn
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Hmmm, that is poor. And like a red rag to most parents.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
The most competent, caring and careful instructor will occasionally lose a child. That's life.
But this case was something different. I don't believe that it's possible for one person to safely supervise 13 primary school children - especially in a large and busy resort like Meribel. I'd be interested to know what requirements British schools have for adult / child ratios on day trips.
The instructor's attitute was a little alarming, too. When the parents asked where their child was, he casually shrugged his shoulders and suggested that if the missing kid had any sense, he might have made his way to the ski school. He wasn't remotely concerned - losing children seemed to be as natural an event as carving a turn. |
It clearly isn't possible to adequately supervise 13 kids of that age on a ski slope, and the instructor and ESF knew that (hence the instructor's lack of interest). They took a small risk in exchange for the cash, and got away with it, as they almost always will; how many kids are killed or injured as a result of being seperated from their class? The main risk is not physical harm but the prospect of the kid being deterred from going to ski school again. The occasional grumpy parent isn't a sufficient disincentive.
The only effective remedy lies in not allowing your kid to go into a class of that size if you're worried about them getting separated, which is a pain for the parents and for the kid.
When our kids were on hols at that age (not just skiing), we tried to make sure that they had the hotel's card with them so if they became lost, they could at least be taken back there (assuming that they hadn't skied off a cliff or been abducted or run over). Unless kids have private lessons, it must be pretty easy to lose them even from a more reasonable sized class. My son managed to briefly lose his ski class a few times (he spends a good deal of time on his own planet), but didn't come to any harm. That was in Banff, which has several advantages for kids of that sort of age; they speak the lingo, most runs lead back reasonably quickly to a recognisable base area, the boundaries of the patrolled area are marked and people seem more willing to be helpful (and the ski schools are very conscientious about looking after the kids properly in the first place).
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If parents want their children in smaller classes, they either
1) Need to holiday outside the peak times,
2) Go to the smaller less well known resorts.
3) Pay for private lessons
The ESF seem to get slated relentlessly in this forum and always by people who have visited the mega resorts in peak times.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Fogliettaz, Excellent advice.
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How many is to many? It's a how long is a piece of string of question in many ways. I'd say it depends on the kids in the group to a large extent, if their of similar ability, co-operative with the instructor and reasonably well behaved then fairly large groups can still work and still learn plenty.
I was in similar sized classes when I was 10 in Austria, and having previously been in much smaller classes, the big group was more fun and I actually learned more - so in part it depends as much on the instructors ability to teach kids as the size of the group.
As for loosing kids - it's an occupational hazard, unless you have them all on the end of ropes, even then one would probably still manage to wriggle free! 
As for larger groups vs smaller groups, I managed to 'loose' a group when I was 9 or 10 and it was a group of only 6. Spent the rest of the morning skiing about on my own. Heading back to the meeting point at lunch time worried either the instructor or parents were going to kill me, happened to come upon my group heading back, so tagged onto the end. To this day I swear the Instructor was none the wiser! 
Sorry, I know that last bit isn't what parents want to hear, but it was all part of the adventure! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Fogliettaz wrote: |
If parents want their children in smaller classes, they either
1) Need to holiday outside the peak times,
2) Go to the smaller less well known resorts.
3) Pay for private lessons
The ESF seem to get slated relentlessly in this forum and always by people who have visited the mega resorts in peak times. |
And from the reports I have seen, rightly so.
the fact that it is peak season should not mean they override their basic safety principles.
If they generally have a class size limit of 10 for children, then that should be the limit every week. And if that means some parents can't get their children into ski school in peak weeks, so be it.
You can't just say it is suddenly acceptable to have more people in the class, just at the time when that is most likely to cause problems (because the pistes will be at their most crowded).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
If they generally have a class size limit of 10 for children, then that should be the limit every week. And if that means some parents can't get their children into ski school in peak weeks, so be it.
You can't just say it is suddenly acceptable to have more people in the class, just at the time when that is most likely to cause problems (because the pistes will be at their most crowded). |
Try to telling that to the insistent parents. It's a bit of a no-win situation. To be honest some people in the UK have a nearly impossible to meet expectation of what resorts can deliver at the very busiest peak times.
It may be more of a problem for English and Welsh schools, as lack of half-term holidays in Scotland mean there are no real holidays during the peak ski season and schools seem to generally be (or at least used to be) less objectionable to families going on ski holidays during term time for that very reason. 
In fact quite a few schools do term time school ski trips.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| Quote: |
If they generally have a class size limit of 10 for children, then that should be the limit every week. And if that means some parents can't get their children into ski school in peak weeks, so be it.
You can't just say it is suddenly acceptable to have more people in the class, just at the time when that is most likely to cause problems (because the pistes will be at their most crowded). |
Try to telling that to the insistent parents. |
I've seen ski schools do just that. The parents get cross, and then they get over it. They should have booked earlier.
And not all mega-resorts or branches of the ESF have this outrageous practice. I was in Tignes a few years back when both the ESF and Evolution 2 refused to accommodate any more children because the classes were full. My kids were OK, but one family in the chalet ended up booking a week of ruinously expensive private lessons. Once they got over the shock of signing the credit card bill, they were pretty reasonable about the affair, and so they should have been. They had the chance to book earlier and they didn't take it.
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You know it makes sense.
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We had a problem with lessons for my two children booked through Panaroma in Pamporovo in New Year 07 with classes of 18 to 20 beginners.
I complained at the time, I complained to the Reps, and I complained when we got back. The problem was the resort was completely overbooked with hotels, and ski school both experiencing too many people. I didn't get anywhere at the time or later, other than apologies.
I'll just never use Panorama or return to Pamporovo again and would advise others to do the same.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In Grimentz in February, my youngest had a class of 4/5, but my eldest boy had a class size of 1!
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