 Poster: A snowHead
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Why would it do that?
If I have a firm stance on one leg, and lift my other foot in the air can I not still steer my foot, even trace the whole alphabet in the air with it?
If I was to have bell bottom pants on that lifted foot's leg and the wind caught them, do I not still have a good chance of resisting that wind?
Inadequate pressure on the outside ski on steeps. Now that I would worry about.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why is for the instructors to figure out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Heh? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abc wrote: |
| ski wrote: |
abc, Stand with your feet together. Have someone try to push you over. Stand with your feet apart.. repeat the push over.
With your feet apart, roll your knees and ankles over (edging your skis) see how much further over you can get compared to your feet together. |
I don't feel it's a good arguement. We're not playing rugby. We're skiing.
More over, when the terrain is rough/steep, wider stance run the risk of the inadequate pressure on the inside ski. |
Ski is completely right. Take the first exercise: the steeper the slope, the more you have to resist the force of your body trying to go straight down it (ie the centrifugal force is the guy trying to push you over). You are more stable and better able to resist the force with your feet apart. If you don't agree, take a look at a downhill racer who is resisting huge forces. Feet close together? Don't think so. 
As to the second illustration, don't just discard it: try it. You simply cannot physically achieve as much tilt on your skis with your feet close as you can with them apart. Why? Because your knees are so close together that that inside one blocks the outside one. If you do achieve a significant tilt with your feet close, then watch out. YOu will probably be banking so much that your feet will slide out downhill and deposit you ungracefully on your side. Again look at racers or just at anyone carving effectively and check their feet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
Because your knees are so close together that that inside one blocks the outside one.
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I heard this comment many times but don't think I've experienced it. Does that means my stance is wide enough? :)
Or it could also means I don't till the ski enough.
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Which might also make snowploughs fatiguing?
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But if that's the case, I'd think widening the stance isn't really the cure, tilting the ski more is.
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Your objection confuses the result with the method.
If you merely tilt the ski without being able to stand on the tilted ski, what have you accomplished?
(Other than made (half of) a very fatiguing snowplough (indeed))
The concept here is that one has to stand on the tilted ski with a long leg.
Where does that put the other leg's hip? How far over on the snow?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 5-03-08 22:44; edited 1 time in total
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abc, very basic, both are body balanced on the inside edges. Standing on a tilted ski. Standing on two tilted skis. (edits to make clearer).
My question above was within your own choice of discussion, the parallel stance.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
The concept here is that one has to stand on the tilted ski with a long leg.
Where does that put the other leg's hip? How far over on the snow?
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Right next to the hips of the "long leg".
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And, once more, how far over across the snow from the tilted ski?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You tell me (if you know).
I don't ski in front of a mirror. But perhaps you do?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I still remain unconvinced, as well. I just did the wide stance/narrow stance edge thing and could get the same angle with wide and narrow stance. In face narrow felt more solid since my legs became a "single unit". The real problem I have, despite what people say - I can still get around the mountain with a narrow stance AND a lot of the skiers I see seem to have a narrow stance still (at least the good ones). If you angled a race upwards, I think you'd find their legs would be quite close together - it's just that they appear when carving, to be almost lying on the snow and with both feet in contact they have one long and one short leg which can look like a wide stance but isn't in comparison.
I'm not trying to argue here - I know that wider is what everyone is taught these days - what I'm saying is more about whether it's partly a trend and not completely related to the position you need to adopt in order to ski correctly.
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You know it makes sense.
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Isn't it obvious that some of the advice in this thread is being offered by instructors?
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That, has never mattered to those who insist on putting their fingers in their ears and not wishing to listen
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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johnnyh, Racers do have a wide stance... it's simply not possible to edge the ski enough without it. That doesn't mean it's a wiiiide stance (think of John Wayne).. just a wider stance. It's also true that for some tasks (bumps for example) a narrower stance helps.
Much of this wide vs narrow debate started with carving skis, and it was certainly the case that for several years, more or less everyone I taught benefitted from having a wider stance. Hence the advice.
I know (I learnt a long time ago) - that my stance on my skis (if I don't pay attention to it) is quite narrow. This is true skiing alpine or tele. I also know that if I get my feet further apart I ski better, I know this because the stopwatch tells me so (alpine) , and also (tele ) I have fewer 'moments' and falls.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ccl, veeeight, calm down chaps. It's the nature of forums to question conventional wisdom, and if people are told different things by different instructors (which they are, probably for good reason), it's hardly surprising if they question what they're told.
I've been told several apparently diametrically opposite things by different instructors (such as stance, direction shoulders, weighting of each ski). Being charitable, I assume that this is 'different tools in the box'; being uncharitable, it could be because some or all of them don't know what they're talking about or that they feel they have to come up with something new to justify themselves and to keep pulling the punters in. I have little doubt that it's the the 'tools in the box' thing, but if it isn't, your profession has more than its fair share of charlatans.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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johnnyh, I agree on the increased stability of a wider stance. I do a lot of ballet, and while having both legs close together - the single unit - does feel solid, the equilibrium is fragile because your body then has no counterbalance i.e. if pushed or otherwise unbalanced, your bodyweight has nowhere to go but over. With a slightly wider stance, your body has more freedom to rebalance itself. I don't know if I'm explaining well, but try this. Stand with your feet together and swing your hips from side to side. Then try it again with your feet hip width apart. You'll find that you can swing your hips more with your feet wider, because feet apart allows weight to be transferred from side to side (the swinging allows each hip to be released in turn, causing the legs to lengthen in turn) - and it's that which helps particularly when skiing on uneven terrain or at speed. The other thing you might want to think about is the skis you're using. Mine are quite wide at the tips, so a narrow stance means one tip will actually end up on top of the other, and I find myself at one with the snow in a face-down horizontal kind of manner!
That said, I understand what you're saying about narrow stance and good skiers - a friend of mine skis narrow, and she is beautiful to watch.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think where I'm at is that I've heard different things from different people and what I see (good skiers on piste for example) backs up one side or other. So although there maybe instructors giving advice here - without the consistency in the ski school it's no wonder that people (on here) might ask ". . . but why are you saying that and someone else says something else."
All advice is appreciated, by the way.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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johnnyh, It used to be the case that differing nations had differing teaching methods - so you could definitely get contradictory advice. These days that is less true...but, there are very very few hard and fast rules in skiing, so as instructors are human, you may well get differing advice throughout your skiing career.
An example, teaching a beginner to turn without excessive shoulder rotation, I'll probably say, 'keep facing down the hill ', because this is a simple description of what's required - and not describe the detail of what I mean - because it's a little complicated, and may well be forgotten anyway.
Later on, I'll have the same skier come back, and now he/she wants to carve bigger turns, I'll want them to stay squarer on the ski. At this point I'd explain exactly what's required.
So both pieces of advice are correct (IMV) and work in improving the skills of the skier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
But how dare the non-instructor kind question either one of the instructor!  |
Fair point, I'll keep quiet.
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abc,
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They're only "correct" in their proper context
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Isn't that what I was saying ?
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Without communicating the limitation, a blanket "advice" could very well be "wrong".
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Which is why almost every response starts with 'Without seeing you ski......' In this thread we've mostly been talking about wide, vs narrow stance (well I have) - quite specific I'd have thought, backed up by examples.
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Too many ski instructors are too busy "correcting" the student by saying whatever he's doing is WRONG
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That's not how I (or anyone else I know ) works.
Enough !
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