 Poster: A snowHead
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I've just returned from a fab week in La Thuile and although i felt that my skiing progressed, by mid-day my thighs were burning. Given that i am generally fit- jogging, gardening etc.- i wonder if my technique is to blame or could it be an equipment problem?
Am i leaning back, therefore making my legs work harder? If so, can you recommend an exercise to force me to move my weight forward. Or perhaps there is an alteration to my boots that will give the same effect?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richlott, It would appear that you already supect what the problem is. Stand in ski position, get someone to stand on your toes, and then move your upper boddy back about 10cm. It is only a small distance, but feel how it pulls mid-thigh. Good lessons is the answer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| richlott wrote: |
| Am i leaning back, therefore making my legs work harder? If so, can you recommend an exercise to force me to move my weight forward. |
Stance would be one of the things which make your quads work harder than necessary if you were leaning back.
I've often asked instructors how to cure that problem, and mostly the answer is "stop doing it". I don't know of any exercise that will guarantee a cure, but knowing where your sweet spot is will help you get good feedback from your feet. I will occasionally close my eyes (when stationary) and rock back and for focusing on the sensation in my feet to find my balanced position. Also in terms of feedback, being aware of your shins lightly pushed into the front of your boots might help with stance. For specific exercises you could try javelin turns (a good exercise for edging, but only works well if you are centred on your skis), or raising your inside foot so the tip rides on the snow but the tail is lifted up. But the best advice given to me is "stop doing it" - takes practice to get right and defeat your instincts which are dropping you into the back seat, but it's not difficult.
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skiing on one ski is a pretty good exercise for making you get into a good position. just do it on the traverse skiing on your downhill foot - if you're in a nice forward position, this will be relatively easy. if you're in the back seat, it'll be very difficult. once you get good at this, try skiing on the uphill ski or making turns on one foot.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
| skiing on one ski is a pretty good exercise for making you get into a good position. just do it on the traverse skiing on your downhill foot - if you're in a nice forward position, this will be relatively easy. if you're in the back seat, it'll be very difficult. once you get good at this, try skiing on the uphill ski or making turns on one foot. |
Agreed, although it can be a bit tricky for relatively inexperienced skiers. Riding with the tip of the inside ski on the snow achieves the same thing from a stance perspective, but offers added security of a second point of contact.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Easyskis advice of 'stand up' and 'high thighs' helped me with this problem. I was just too crouched most of the time 
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One legged turns (e.g. Javelin) and carving seem to be a lot easier since I've been taking my skates along to my Daughter's ice skating lessons. Trying to skate backwards seems to of helped the ski stance no end.
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anybody else think this thread was gonna be about K2 skis?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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richlott, At the end of the turn think about moving your hips forward along the length of the ski,
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Shoulders and nose in front of the toes! Could be a lack of flex in your ankles your boots could be altered to help this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I also think 'general fitness' isn't sufficient for skiing. I thought I was generally fit for my first ski hols in Jan this year, hadn't bothered going to the gym but done lots of walking and generally active. Added to my poor technique, the thighs were killing me come the afternoon.
So on my return, got myself down the gym, personal training with a guy who happens to be a ski instructor (very handy!) and even 3 weeks of gym made a big difference to my legs come the ski hols just back from, no problems at all. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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richlott, I think it's a postural issue. A good stance uses "Skeletal Strength" or "Stacking" rather than "Muscular Strength" , Ideally Flexed ankles, Knees and Hips, so that the Hips are over the Feet. Rounded Back and Hands forward and out slightly out to the side, looking forward. Think of how a Weightlifter would align his frame in order to lift the heavy weight.
Best way to correct posture is to ski a very long run without stopping, when the "Burn" starts, re-align your posture so that the pain subsides, if it re-occurs as you continue on the run, keep re-adjusting your posture. Your body will align itself into a posture which uses maximum skeletal strength and minimum muscular effort, because that's the one that hurts the least.
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richlott, Without having seen you ski I would echo some of the comments above. Stay tall but loose.
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You know it makes sense.
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| richlott wrote: |
Am i leaning back, therefore making my legs work harder? If so, can you recommend an exercise to force me to move my weight forward. |
Hop. Not a big hop, both feet, up off the snow and land it without flailing.
Repeat as necessary.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Shoulders and nose in front of the toes! |
I really don't like this saying. IMHO it gives a piste full of pre-squeezed lemon wedges, frantically bent at the hips and waist to make up for everything else.
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Could be a lack of flex in your ankles your boots could be altered to help this. |
Q1: Can you see your bindings? Yes? It's a trick question, hide them with your knees.
Q2: Can you see your knees? Yes? It's a trick question, hide them with your navel.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thank you, everyone, for your advice; I had an idea it might be my posture.
I suppose that the only solution is to book another week to work on your suggestions! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| richlott, It would appear that you already supect what the problem is. Stand in ski position, get someone to stand on your toes, and then move your upper boddy back about 10cm. It is only a small distance, but feel how it pulls mid-thigh. Good lessons is the answer. |
FTS Is this a training exercise to isolate the ideal muscles for skiing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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flowa, if that's a serious question, then the answer is "No!".
FtS is attempting to demonstrate "bad" by demonstrating the sensation of "very bad". Not the final answer, I reckon, but more like getting a beer drunk hung over on whisky.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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flowa, if Frosty the Snowman stood on your toes, you wouldn't be skiing for a very long time  .
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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flowa, I don't see it.
I reckon it's best to not strain those bits too much, so one can rely on them to steer the ski when you can't carve (in random junk/powder/slush/bumps for example).
If they're worn out fixing front-to-back balance I'd worry about injuries, particularly if something in the snow tries to steer the ski in a direction one doesn't want it to go.
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I was trying to demonstrate how tiring on the thighs leaning back, even slightly, can be.
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Frosty the Snowman, completely understood 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I found squats with your back against a wall, with one of those fitness balls behind you, with or without weights in your hands, good for the quads/thighs. Main thing though, what FTS said. It was only this last trip in Austria when I believe my technique started getting there that I've stopped suffering as much with my quads.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FWIW, seems to me there's two approaches to this problem. The 'hard' way, involving lots of muscle building exercises to give you quads like Arnold that can stand the strain, and the 'easy' way of getting your stance right, 'stacked' with your skeleton carrying the load, which just takes the strain off those muscles. In my case, being an unfit lazy lardy bug, i was VERY glad to find that the latter method works
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah, true & not advocating the Arnie approach but a bit of muscle tone, as with any general fitness, can only help.
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Jerry, true of course, and the second (or third) trip of the season is definitely easier than the first
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You know it makes sense.
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stance- don't ask me to describe it- you'll know when it's right - ski a lot it will come
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jerry, AxsMan, thanks 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Q2: Can you see your knees? Yes? It's a trick question, hide them with your navel
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Eating more pies would acheive this - not sure its a valid suggestion 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Odin, repeated experimentation is a cornerstone of scientific thought.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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At the risk of being shot down in flames, I'd say you need to BOTH get your technique sorted (i.e. use the skeleton for support where you can, have weight correctly distributed front to back and between the two skis), AND do some fitness exercises. This is because on certain terrain/conditions you still need to ski with more of a bend in your knee and this still hurts un-conditioned quads. You can't always use the skeleton optimally, and you will always be working the quads to some extent while skiing.
Very good quads exercises are squats with weights on the shoulders - you need to be able to squat not just your bodyweight, but more, to allow for the effects of gravity. I squat with about 30 to 35% of my bodyweight (I'm 50kg, so this is 17.5kg) for about 5 minutes, with slow and fast repetitions, and repetitions with a limited range of movement at the bottom of the squat. Also lunges (with weights) are extremely good for strengthening quads. Doing both on a core board or BOSU ball will replicate to some extent the instability of skiing.
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docsquid, Prefer Odin's Pie based regime myself
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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docsquid, totally agree. You need both maximal strength and endurance for good skiing, apart from technique that is. There is no way you can descend a black or rubbled off-piste without resorting seriously to your thighs as cushion for the movements.
Apart from what docsquid said, another tested squat technique is series of very very slow repetitions. 20 seconds to descend, 10 seconds in the bottom, 20 seconds to get up. Builds not only resistance generally, but particularly the resistance level against lactid acid.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| docsquid wrote: |
| you need to be able to squat not just your bodyweight, but more, to allow for the effects of gravity |
Sound advice, I'm sure, but I'm so sure about the 'effects of gravity' bit. Isn't gravity what gives us our bodyweight in the first place? (Yes, it is.)
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Given a choice of good fitness OR good technique my money would be on technique every time. Sure, being fit and strong will make skiing easier, but great fitness will not compensate for poor technique. It's only in the last three of four years that I've done any dedicated fitness training prior to the ski season and I managed perfectly well to have a great time skiing prior to that.
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| richmond wrote: |
| docsquid wrote: |
| you need to be able to squat not just your bodyweight, but more, to allow for the effects of gravity |
Sound advice, I'm sure, but I'm so sure about the 'effects of gravity' bit. Isn't gravity what gives us our bodyweight in the first place? (Yes, it is.) |
No, it isn't. You will experience G forces when you are making high speed turns that are greater than 1g. The faster you go, the more that force will be, but you will definitely weigh more when subject to fast turns than when you are standing still.
I agree with rob@rar - technique is extremely important, but it isn't a substitute for fitness - the two work together. Both are necessary, but neither is sufficient.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I agree on the general point of the technique over fitness. Moreover, in most cases in my opinion there is no need for "dedicated fitness training prior to the ski season". It is enough to go once-twice per week to the gym, engage in team sports or go running - or more generally live a healthy and fit life. That will cover most people's needs for their skiing - but it will not be sufficient for expert level and it will also stop you from being able to improve your technique in difficult conditions.
Skiing is a real sport, and apart from skiing only (since we do not have 20 weeks/year of skiing, at least most of us), those who want to entertain themselves on the more athletic style of skiing, should really get prepared. This can be generic sports, or it can be specific skiing conditioning. I suggest both. As for lifestyle, I cannot imagine that any serious snowhead would lead a non-fit lifestyle... 
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| docsquid wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| docsquid wrote: |
| you need to be able to squat not just your bodyweight, but more, to allow for the effects of gravity |
Sound advice, I'm sure, but I'm so sure about the 'effects of gravity' bit. Isn't gravity what gives us our bodyweight in the first place? (Yes, it is.) |
No, it isn't. You will experience G forces when you are making high speed turns that are greater than 1g. The faster you go, the more that force will be, but you will definitely weigh more when subject to fast turns than when you are standing still. |
That's the effect of speed.
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FAQ
