 Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, why was that unfortunate? Do you think SCGB members are incompetent skiers?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| red 27 wrote: |
| David Goldsmith... maybe... I guess I agree, but for anyone who climbs or skis in Alpine situations 'open' and 'closed' are other peoples assessments to be taken on board as part of ones own (hopefully) expereienced judgement of conditions and risk... there are no guarantees.... open does NOT mean safe! ....... |
When an area or piste is 'open' I agree with you - skiers must still make their own judgements. When an area or piste is closed, the judgements are not just 'other peoples' assessments, but of those of resort experts who almost certainly know the area better than you. Ski in those areas, and you are skiing against local advice, and so, IMV, you are invalidating your insurance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
If you mean you get more reckless skiers in Verbier than elsewhere I'm not widely travelled enough to comment.
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Verbier does have a lot of experienced and talented skiers who will be comfortable skiing slopes even when Televerbier deems them unsafe. It also has a lot of young freeriders who want to make a bit of a name for themselves, and whilst they are often superb skiers, their relative inexperience seems to make them take risks that perhaps they shouldn't, particularly if someone is pointing a camera in their direction.
The article by James Cove is interesting in that it highlights some of the problems that I alluded to above, namely the range of abilites and experience of people tackling runs like Tortin. I've probably skiied it a couple of hundred times now, in all conditions, and on each occasion I reckon I've seen at least one person out of their depth. That doesn't change if the run is open or closed, some people are just not strong enough skiers to cope with a 30+ degree slope which almost always has exposed rocks on it somewhere and is often bumped up.
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| Quote: |
Ski in those areas, and you are skiing against local advice, and so, IMV, you are invalidating your insurance.
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I wonder about this.
Clearly, when the avalanche risk is high, the closure may be to reduce avalanche risk on the piste or ones near it. Going thrugh the ropes is a definite no-no. But if the closure is on the grounds of snow cover then surely the closure simply means "fall below the quality you'd expect of a groomed run". I might well (have done!) skied slopes where the game is link the patches of snow between the bushes/rocks. This on slopes that were not closed because they are always off piste! Why should my insurance be valid for that but not for an equivalent closed piste?
J
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Policies differ, but mine talks about being invaildated if you ski in areas against local advice, or words to that general effect. No doubt lawyers would have a field day, but I wouldn't bank on mine being valid on a closed piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I wouldn't bank on mine being valid on a closed piste.
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I have been down closed pistes with instructors - usually after a warning not to try this at home. I've always gone, rather than argued, but I have wondered a bit about insurance.
We have two ways home, a black run and a blue. Towards the end of the afternoon a big fence is put up, warning that the blue run ONLY is open ONLY for people going to Bisanne 1500 (because of the imminent closure of the lift back up to access the main resort). When the snow is OK the black run presents no special difficulties, and is not rocky. Just steep. I always know what the state of snow on the black run is, because I can see it from the chairlift going up, but even if the snow is good I always go down the blue, and persuade anybody over whom I have any authority (like the 16 year old nephew for whom I am in loco parentis) to do the same. I have sometimes wondered what would happen if you came to grief on that run and telephoned the piste patrol. I suppose they'd come to get you?
Does anyone have experienced of having to call in rescue for an accident on a closed piste? And of the reaction of insurance companies. They would presumably not be remotely impressed if it was closed for lack of snow and they had to hike down a load of grass with a body on a stretcher? Does Carré Neige cover rescue on closed pistes?
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I often grimace a little to myself when talking to people who describe themselves probably honestly as intermediate then say "but I can get down anything". I have heard those words so many times.
The trouble is that those kind of people do not really understand what "anything" might entail and really if you can ski down anything you are far more than an intermediate skier, so saying that you are an intermediate in one breath and claiming straight away that you can get down anything is a total contradiction.
I think that these are the sort of people that get into trouble on steep icy slopes in worn conditions. Personally I am surprised that there are not far more serious accidents when runs such as Tortin are in bad shape.
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richjp, Agreed completely.
I describe myself as intermediate, but I would only say I can "get down" almost any pisted run. To suggest I could "get down" anything would just show I was unknowing enough to not know what "anything" could encompass.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Tortin was rather nice yeserday,
fortunatly no "Great ski club of Britian" punters to be seen  |
There are in fact quite a few SCGB members who are also snowHeads. What is the purpose of being gratuitously rude in this way?
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pam w, My husband has been looking closely at insurance policies following the death off piste of the anaesthetist in Val d'Isere. His insurance didnt cover him for being off piste & therefore they wouldnt pay to repatriate his body 
Carte neige claims to rescue you from anywhere on the mountain & take you to the medical centre.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Rope-ducking seems to be a Verbier speciality. I recall seeing an official instructor taking a class into a closed area near Lac des Vaux some years ago, literally lifting the rope for the class.
I imagine it voids any insurance if there's a mishap. |
A rope doesn't necessarily mean Closed. Usually it is just a way of alerting piste skiers that the area beyond is off piste. If it says "closed" that is a different matter. The trouble is that the resorts are getting more and more cautious and put up closed and danger signs when guides know most of the area is safe - so they go through (as our guide and several others did going over to the Vallonet from the Signal lift last week).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| richjp wrote: |
I often grimace a little to myself when talking to people who describe themselves probably honestly as intermediate then say "but I can get down anything". I have heard those words so many times.
The trouble is that those kind of people do not really understand what "anything" might entail and really if you can ski down anything you are far more than an intermediate skier, so saying that you are an intermediate in one breath and claiming straight away that you can get down anything is a total contradiction.
I think that these are the sort of people that get into trouble on steep icy slopes in worn conditions. Personally I am surprised that there are not far more serious accidents when runs such as Tortin are in bad shape. |
I have had the pleasure of seeing a few  ski and none of them are anywhere near as good as they make out. One chap who regularly claims to be an expert and an authority on skiing, I watched in pains of laughter as he tackled Tortin. Got you wondering now?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Why does it make a difference whether it's a piste or itinerary or not before it's closed?
There's always a rope at the back of Mt Fort, that you cross to go down the back side. The conditions there can vary massively. When you cross that rope you know what you are doing (I hope). If they put a rope across the entrance to Chassoure and you choose to cross it (go under it more accurately) then you are undertaking an action of the same significance as going off the back side of Mt Fort. For insurance purposes I would expect the insurance that covers me in an unpisted, unpatrolled wilderness to still be as effective on what is now an unpatrolled, unsecured former itinerary.
When a piste is closed surely it just reverts to the status of the rest of the unpisted, unpatrolled mountain or are people claiming that closed former pistes are more dangerous than areas that are never "in bounds"?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Steve Sparks, each individual's call what he or she does - having taken into account local law and and his/her insurance ploicy wording.
Here's the wording form my Snowcard policy:
ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS FOR SEARCH AND RESCUE EXPENSES
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2. You must comply at all times with local safety advice and adhere to the recommendations prevalent at the time.
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So, as I see it, for my policy:
A rope off simply delineating off-piste should be OK, provided there is no other reason for not going, since my policy covers me for off-piste.
A rope off to close the piste means that I should not go past the rope if I want Snowcard to cover any rescue that might be required.
A rope off of off-piste with signs advising the area is closed also means no go. However, if I were with a guide who advised me that to carry on was OK provided I followed his instructions, then I would usually accept that as the most recent relevant local advice.
IIRC, there is also a duty in UK law for the insured to take reasonable steps not to cause a claim on the policy. For example, one should not leave one's property on open display in an unlocked house. So, no matter what the wording of an individual policy, I would think that an insurer could reasonably decline to cover a risk you took going past a rope into an area you knew that the resort authorities had placed out of bounds. Just my take, though - perhaps a legal eagle could comment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I don't want to try to balance too many angels on the end of a ski pole, and I don't disagree with your take on how an insurer is likely to interpret it. But I don't understand the concept of closed off piste. I've never seen a sign saying that off piste is closed -surely it's never open?
The thing that does seem particularly crazy is that one would not be covered for a black run closed because there are some rocks on it yet you would be covered for les triffides in La Grave....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Your first point: I'm not sure I had seen one till last week. Very strange.
Your second: Yes, crazy isn't it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Steve Sparks, I understand your point. However, at La Grave our guide told us that there was a hooter that was let off warn skiers were approaching an area that should not be skied even by expert skiers in the conditions. I don't think he was pulling our legs - but perhaps La Grave regulars could comment. I think I have seen off-piste warning signs (beyond the usual warnings of no-patrols) from time to time. But by my very vagueness I concede it its unusual. [edit] but I see from his last post that snowball has seen such a sign[/edit] Getting back to insurance points, this travel insurance page is interesting.
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| Travel insurance will not be of much help to the British man killed while snowboarding in the French Alps at Val d’Isere. Apparently, he went off-piste and took a wrong turn which sent him on a plunge of more than 100 feet (approx. 30m). He ventured off into an area where even the expert ski guides would not go.....Most policies will not cover for off-piste of out-of bounds skiing when warnings or advice have been ignored. The same goes for other reckless behaviour which puts your life in danger. |
So, if there are not signs, I guess the follow-on is that it is up to you to brief yourself on an off-piste area before you go there (if you do so without a guide) so that you know a sensible route, and if you don't you may not be insured.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Steve Sparks, to the left (going up) of the Schindlergratbahn (I think) in St Anton is some off piste with 'No entry' signs dottd about on it, possibly because there's a dirty great cliff. This might be regarded as 'closed off piste', perhaps.
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parlor, trying to re-execute a back-flip performed the nite b4...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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red 27, agree with you on the snow, definitely in need of a top up. As a member of the cognescenti ( ), would I have met you in the Farinet or Kasbah on Sat night?
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[quote="parlor
I have had the pleasure of seeing a few ski and none of them are anywhere near as good as they make out. One chap who regularly claims to be an expert and an authority on skiing, I watched in pains of laughter as he tackled Tortin. Got you wondering now?[/quote]
I have skied a few times with Parlor....and I take serious offense at this!
However I have not skied Tortin with Parlor, which is a small consolation.
Parlor...we are out this weekend....I should be easy to spot...I'll be the bloke breaking your other ski over your head!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Another angle on the closed piste debate - I think there is an analogy with driving - if you are on a motorway you don't expect to come round a corner and hit a dug up section which requires crossing at 5 miles per hour - the motorway would be closed - not because you can't get through but because it's stopped being what it was intended for and what people expect....
There's a thread elsewhere about over terra formed pistes and this is related - people now expect smoothish piste with no rocks, tree stumps etc etc - if the slope management can't provide this maybe they are closing them for the safety of over confident speed skiers? (sales reps?) r
Perhaps there should be an red amber green system to allow people to be warned and to ski (whilst insured) "amber" slopes that are not in the conditions most skiers expect pistes to be in, whilst reserving Red for ones that are effectively impassable for whatever reason.
Meanwhile, you should see how good a skier I am when in the bar - its the slopes that cause the problems
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Perhaps there should be an red amber green system to allow people to be warned
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it's not uncommon to see a "faible enneigement" sign, sometimes with a warning that the slope should be attempted by good skiers only.
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You know it makes sense.
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| achilles wrote: |
| However, at La Grave our guide told us that there was a hooter that was let off warn skiers were approaching an area that should not be skied even by expert skiers in the conditions. I don't think he was pulling our legs - but perhaps La Grave regulars could comment. |
I find that difficult to believe. As far as I know there is nobody at either the mid station or top station permanently watching where skiers are going. In any case in a hundred metres or so in most directions you are out of sight of the lift station and even more quickly in white out conditions. The same apllies at the top of the drag lift. A skier would be out of sight before anyone could issue any warning.
I have skied in La Grave three times now and have never heard of any such warning. If I did hear a hooter I would not have a clue what it was or whether or not it was intended for me. In addition if it was windy you would probably not hear a thing anyway.
Perhaps your guide was referring to some kind of warning at the link with La Grave at the top of Les Deux Alpes where there are loads of intermediate skiers milling around?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ha ........remind me never to ski with parlor...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Couple more fatalities reported here. I'm not sure that being killed in a cab counts as a skiing accident, mind you. I was in a cab on Friday, and I definitely wasn't skiing during any part of the journey. Fortunately nothing fell on it, but the cabbie looked a bit cross when I tipped him 40p.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richjp, IIRC it was a hooter available for use at the Refuge if a guide happened to spot someone skiing when he should not. It was ad hoc, not a fully monitored operation, I think.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BGA, hic... blimey, seems a while ago now... I can't actually remember being in the Kasbah...
Hey ho, detox for me for a while...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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For the recordrungsp is a better skier than his modest self will admit to! And it weren't you either Marco...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
) was Ferme (open in anglais 
