 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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thefatcontroller, I know... but we still like to help her keep the slopes free of child-stealing nutjobs.
David using the word "rape" in a thread with people who have bought french alp property... let's see, Petrol, Matches... what else do I need? I think you protest a bit too much.
Go on - play nice - tell us one place where you have skied in the last 12 months? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
That's an assertion, not proof. |
You are demanding that I prove that I've gone skiing? What is this - the Savoie Inquisition? |
Of course, you've never asked anyone to confirm anything (like their real identity) 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 17-02-08 12:52; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Aren't the capital gains laws/tax in France for overseas buyers quite horrendous making the quick buck very difficult?
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If you sell a second property you are liable for capital gains tax. If you sell a place which has been your primary residence for a minimum of three years, you aren't. As far as I remember.
This strikes me as more sensible than horrendous. Homes are for living in, not for the fortunate few to use as investments.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother
It would be easier to tell you 100 places I haven't skied in the last 12 months, because I haven't skied in the last 12 months. As I said I don't appreciate personal interrogation so give it a rest please. We're discussing issues that have no relevance to who skis and how much and where.
Thanks for the pyromania guidance. As someone who stood at the war memorial in Lewes last November 5th I let other people do the explosions (and my God were they loud!)
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David Goldsmith, Sorry to hear that. I hope you are able to ski again soon. I know you love it. Thanks for clarifying this.
Your own personal recent ski history is however of some relevance when when you are expressing a polemical view about ski resorts, travel habits, etc etc, as you well know  . This is both because it is good to see if a man walks the walk as well as talks the talk, and also because to proclaim virtuousness in the absence of temptation is an empty feat...
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Of course, you've never asked anyone to confirm anything (like their real identity) |
It seems obvious to ask someone to name themself if they're using anonymity as a cloak for personal insults, abuse etc. I wouldn't ask for a name otherwise. I think a real name helps to authenticate an opinion or stated fact, sure.
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David Goldsmith, and a statement of recent skiing experience helps authenticate the basis on which an opinion is formed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, I think real skiing experience validates opinions concerned with skiing in some way. Thank you for answering a question you have so often dodged. I think we can now put your personal campaign to reduce the capacity for skiing into context.
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David Goldsmith, before the advent of winter sports, the Alps was a dirt-poor, depopulating region which almost nobody visited. Now, it has a thriving economy and tens of million of ordinary people are able to use the region for fun and invigorating recreation. Can you tell me at roughly want point you would have preferred Alpine development to have been arrested?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's a fair question. No I can't. I just know that since the mid-1980s environmental bodies have been very concerned at the health of the Alps. There are all kinds of reasons why high-altitude constructions harm the local ecologies of those landscapes. My observation is that the local economies of Alpine villages are best served by hotels, guesthouses etc., not apartment blocks.
Spec-built apartment blocks benefit large property corporations, in the main.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Goldsmith, and benefit those who live in them? who then spend dosh in resorts in small businesses (although usually these seem to be owned by only two families per resort) which trickles down, and then you get the better infrastructure etc etc.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
My observation is that the local economies of Alpine villages are best served by hotels, guesthouses etc., not apartment blocks.
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It was, of course, the advent of compact self-catering apartments that enabled the unwashed masses to take part in winter sports holidays, but those people never seem to be a part of your observations.
For large chunks of the French Alps the local economies have been particularly well served by apartment blocks, so I'm not quite sure what your definition of best is (other than shrinking the capacity of ski stations to serve a smaller number or well-heeled clientele).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| Aren't the capital gains laws/tax in France for overseas buyers quite horrendous making the quick buck very difficult? |
CGT is actually rather more onerous in the UK; in France it reduces, the longer you own the property, though if you pay tax in the UK (as we do, as this is our domicile) I think you end up paying the UK rate anyway - it stays at 40% but is reduced to take account of inflation, using the standard Treasury deflators. I confess to being a bit vague about it, as I have no intention of selling my property any time soon. However, if I make a profit on it, I don't actually terribly mind paying tax on it - I would still hang on to 60% of the real profit, and I didn't buy it to make a profit, I bought it to spend a lot of time in for many years. Anyone buying property for "a quick buck" has only themselves to blame if it goes pear shaped.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It was, of course, the advent of compact self-catering apartments that enabled the unwashed masses to take part in winter sports holidays, but those people never seem to be a part of your observations. |
Would you like those observations, or would you prefer to paint me (like some sort of prejudiced hack) as a snob who wants skiing preserved for the rich?
Just for the record, one of my most recent and enjoyable ski trips involved kipping (as a stranger) in a 6-bed room in a hostel, and the company was brilliant. I've slept on floors, in corridors, on beds with 'serious spring fatigue' to get a ski.
So, you can maybe appreciate that the needs of the less well-off skier are pretty close to my heart.
This has nothing to do with a class war. It is about the protection of the Alpine environment from the rape of large corporations who want to pander to the 'growth potential' of property values.
We are talking about an extremely short interval of time (about 120 years, with more exponential pressure in the past 50 years) during which Alpine tourism has boomed. The trees, flowers, glaciers and Alpine communities have longer histories.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| prefer to paint me (like some sort of prejudiced hack) as a snob who wants skiing preserved for the rich? |
It is the corollary of what you recommend. I don't know any other outcome. I don't for one minute believe that you would deliberately want to return skiing to the preserve of the wealthy, but if you were in charge of the skiing world people like me wouldn't have ever got to sample, and become hooked, on skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| ... if you were in charge of the skiing world people like me wouldn't have ever got to sample, and become hooked, on skiing. |
Bearing in mind that around 2% of the UK population go skiing I don't think we're talking about a sport for the masses, if that's your dream. Angling has (last time I checked) about 4 million participants. The cost of skiing, because of all the kit and complications, is high.
But hostels provide interesting potential. They are extremely intensively used, are inexpensive to build, provide low-cost accommodation for people of all ages from all countries and - for a given footprint - are very efficient users of land. They enable people to interract socially, across cultures and continents, make friends, and enjoy recommendations of onward destinations.
Should we have more ski hostels and fewer apartment blocks (which are often empty in summer, and sometimes not rented in winter) to enable 'people like you' to take up the sport?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, Of course you would have the opportunity to sample, we all have options in life although you may had to sacrifice other things perhaps.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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David Goldsmith, I for one will admit that the apartments are generally empty in the summer, but hardly ever in the winter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| They are extremely intensively used, are inexpensive to build, provide low-cost accommodation for people of all ages from all countries and - for a given footprint - are very efficient users of land. |
You're describing a large amount of commercial development in apartments, although a series of guest hourses and hotels don't quite fit that description.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| rob@rar, Of course you would have the opportunity to sample, we all have options in life although you may had to sacrifice other things perhaps. |
When I first went skiing I was paid for by my parents. It was a huge financial stretch for them, and if it had been any more expensive it would not have been possible. DG paints a picture of alpine skiing that is 30 or 40 years old, and at the time the numbers participating (and the income levels they were drawn from) were very different from the vision of people who created "people's ski resorts".
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Man, you love apartments!
I was actually striking a case for a form of accommodation which can provide really low-cost skiing, encouraging people to get a foot on the ladder, much more flexibly that having to rent a whole place for a week, usually at fixed date intervals. Hostels are usually open for most of the year, too, since they view the Alps as more than a ski playground - groups etc. might well use them in summer.
Here's a question: When I was a student in the 1970s I (with 22 others) crashed on the floor of a 6-bed apartment in Val d'Isere (yes, I have stayed in them). The cost was spread so thin we had accommodation and food for £1.50 per night. The lucky ones (those with partners!) enjoyed the beds.
Would you view over-occupation of apartments as an acceptable means for the less affluent to get a ski?
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rob@rar, I was also that soldier and I am afraid to say also that time frame. Since then my love of sliding in the mountains made me take the leap of getting a foothold there, I did however have to make sacrifices. We all, or at least most of us do!
David Goldsmith, "The lucky ones (those with partners!) enjoyed the beds". and dare I say other benefits that appear a long and distant past as with my waistline.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Would you view over-occupation of apartments as an acceptable means for the less affluent to get a ski? |
I think you should respect the rules of whoever owns the apartment. Do you advocate ignoring rules about occupancy levels and contravening fire regulations?
I don't have stronger opinions on apartments than I do any other form of alpine accommodation, although I think your views on this matter are driven by your own value system rather than any rational examination of reality. I'm simply against making prices more expensive by reducing supply while demand remains the same. Why anyone who wants to minimise environmental impact advocates the alpine equivalent of low-density housing (hotels and the like) rather than high-density housing (compact apartment buildings) is beyond my comprehension.
I also dislike being accused of being complicit in the rape of the Alps
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
rob@rar, I was also that soldier and I am afraid to say also that time frame. Since then my love of sliding in the mountains made me take the leap of getting a foothold there, I did however have to make sacrifices. We all, or at least most of us do!
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Yes, priorities and sacrifices. But without my parent's support for those first ski trips with school I doubt very much if I would have tried it myself. I now know how much of a sacrifice they made at that time to give that opportunity to me, and in time my sister. It was at the very edge of what they could afford.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob,
The density of a hotel is however you define it, as is an apartment block. I don't think there's necessarily any difference. Guesthouses are pretty high-density. They are not full of living rooms and kitchens.
But what about hostels? They are not that common in the Alps - would you like to see more of them? The hostel movement was designed, non-commercially in the main, specifically to enable the kind of people you're advocating should enjoy holidays.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| But what about hostels? They are not that common in the Alps - would you like to see more of them? The hostel movement was designed, non-commercially in the main, specifically to enable the kind of people you're advocating should enjoy holidays. |
I stayed in hostels a lot when I was a postgraduate student doing fieldwork in different places. I think the relatively low number of them in the Alps reflects the lack of demand for that kind of property for ski holidays.
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rob, I'm afraid you haven't convinced me that you really, at heart, want to see ski accommodation reduced in cost.
The way to have the maximum participation at minimum cost is to provide high-density accommodation at maximum flexibility. But you've suggested that there may be a lack of demand. Given that hostels are often provided through the altruistic provision of landowners and property-owners - and I agree that there are not that many hostels in ski resorts - there may equally be plenty of unfulfilled demand, because hostel organisations cannot complete with apartment developers for land.
When it came to over-occupation of apartments your reply was "Do you advocate ignoring rules about occupancy levels and contravening fire regulations?"
Well, I must admit it wasn't uppermost in our minds as students. We piled in and the landlord kindly turned a blind eye.
If 'skiing for the masses' is really your aspiration, please provide a little more evidence!
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
rob, I'm afraid you haven't convinced me that you really, at heart, want to see ski accommodation reduced in cost.
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I never said that. I said the consequence of what you advocate is increased costs, and that is what I'm against.
But now you're saying you want to whack up lots more 'high density housing in the Alps' Consistency of argument is not your strong suite is it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Did I indicate a quantity? I can assure you that a tiny fraction of the land now occupied by apartment blocks, developed as hostels, would help to achieve your aspiration of entry-level skiing for the less-well-off very effectively.
And those hostels would contain some of the most enthusastic skiers on the planet, with lots of Alpine hikers etc. staying in them in the summer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith, there's a small problem with your theme, if the appartment blocks were full of the less well-off then they wouldn't spend as much in the villages and the local businesses would cease to exist. In our village I've been told by a number of the restuarant and bar owners that without the Brits the village wouldn't be able to support the number of businesses that it does. The common gripe about the French and the Belgians is that they're not interested in eating out or even buying anything, they want the smallest, cheapest apartments, bring as much as they can from home, and apart from the lift company and maybe the ski hire shop they don't spend a cent. Whereas the Brits want to really enjoy their holiday and don't mind spending to achieve that aim. The one thing that has happened with apartments is that the old, small apartments that were characterised by the high rise blocks of the 60's and 70's are increasing being replaced by larger better quality units of higher value.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David@traxvax, well said.
The few French appartments I have rented have had hardly hardly enough room to swing a marmot. The idea of higher density is gobsmacking. The limiting factor is in any case - I suspect - the density of skiers on the piste rather than in the resort accommodation.
Anyway - we already have a workable compromise. rob@rar tries to ensure maximum occupancy by spending as many days as possible at Les Arcs, and David Goldsmith avoids deflowering the alps by not skiing at all...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David@traxvax wrote: |
| David Goldsmith, there's a small problem with your theme, if the appartment blocks were full of the less well-off then they wouldn't spend as much in the villages and the local businesses would cease to exist. In our village I've been told by a number of the restaurant and bar owners that without the Brits the village wouldn't be able to support the number of businesses that it does. The common gripe about the French and the Belgians is that they're not interested in eating out or even buying anything, they want the smallest, cheapest apartments, bring as much as they can from home, and apart from the lift company and maybe the ski hire shop they don't spend a cent. Whereas the Brits want to really enjoy their holiday and don't mind spending to achieve that aim. The one thing that has happened with apartments is that the old, small apartments that were characterised by the high rise blocks of the 60's and 70's are increasing being replaced by larger better quality units of higher value. |
David, I've seen it happening. French and Belgian cars loaded up with everything from fondue sets and slow cookers to the pet cat, and a boot full of shopping from LeClerc. I have turned down several bookings from French families of 6 this season (the apartment only sleeps 4) -although I have also had several bookings from smaller families, which surprised me a bit. I rarely see any of our neighbours out and about in the village, apart from early morning in the boulangerie.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thefatcontroller, yes for the first 5 years then it decreases hence making a quick buck not always the case.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mouth, Thanks, as has been pointed out to David but he continues to rant, no one I have spoken to who owns there has bought for the quick buck. The go, they spend money, they enhance the local economy 
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Helen Beaumont, BE FARE, you cant leave the cat behind!
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Anyway - we already have a workable compromise. rob@rar tries to ensure maximum occupancy by spending as many days as possible at Les Arcs, and David Goldsmith avoids deflowering the alps by not skiing at all... |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In essence, it probably is the solution: the vast majority of people staying away from the mountains, and keeping whatever accommodation is available intensively used by as many people who'd like to ski.
Pushing for large luxury apartments, and further developments of them, is completely off the agenda as far as I'm concerned. As I say, hostel-based accommodation could be great to encourage new skiers on tight budgets.
Alpine skiing is a very scarce resource vis-a-vis the population of Europe. The important thing - the overwhelmingly important thing - is to protect the future of the Alps. On present trends of air pollution, over-development, choked roads and urbanised villages, things don't look too clever.
Let's have a more holistic approach, more Alpine national parks, a cut-back in land/property sales to non-residents and more local people caring for and tending their villages and mountain landscapes/ecology.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Alpine skiing is a very scarce resource vis-a-vis the population of Europe. |
I'm not too sure of that. I would say only for a few weeks of the season: which in a way supports your argument against over-development (though I wouldn't want to impose a draconian policy).
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