 Poster: A snowHead
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| Kruisler wrote: |
| You've just got your blinkers on |
Earmuffs, surely? 
Not having a go Hirsty - just trying to introduce some levity
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Kruisler,
This time I have to come down on The_Hirsty side.
This thread asks the SH if they could agree or not on
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| (1) If a piste user is listening to music while on a piste then he/she is not giving 100% attention to his/her descent. That should be no denial of this fact. It is entirely possible at the reduced attention level he/she is still safe to himself/herself and other piste users because of his/her higher level of skill while descending at a comfortable speed well within his/her capability. It is also equally possible that a music-listening piste user could get it wrong with his/her level of competence and become a safety hazard on the piste. The persistence of this behaviour depends on that person’s judgement only. None of us can judge on his/her behalf. There are others who would not listen to music while on the move because they are considerate. Equally there other piste users not doing it because they can’t at their currently skiing/boarding level. |
Picking The_Hirsty means you don't believe a music listening skier/boarder can be safe on a slope, despite it is commonly practised by boarders/skiers?
It is possible that you may not like it but you do need to know the person's skill level to determine if he/she is competent enough to listen to music while on the move.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 14-02-08 18:34; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think in your last paragraph that you are implying that I am dangerous on the slopes.
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I said:
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Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others ..
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How much clearer can I be?  
I, personally, never said that you were a danger, I just strongly disagree and am flabbergasted that you are (as I understand it) implying that listening to music on the slopes does not reduce someone's awareness of their surroundings... and that hearing is effectively a useless "sense" on the slope because one can't act on it in time... Hearing is a useful sense to have when skiing/boarding, it has allowed people to avoid collisions.. maybe not you cos' you're so good/fast but many beginners/intermediates/other will have been thankful to have heard danger coming...
To summarise my point of view: listening to music increase danger to the "listener", not the others, and IMV there is no doubt about that...You're of course free to listen to music, I don't think that you are an idiot because of it, you assessed the risks (increased IMV) and made your choice...no issues..makes no odds to me, you're the only one affected(or not..) by that decision..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm sure there are skiers good enough to ski safely with their heads up their bums. Losing your hearing is just one small step toward that extreme. I personally think people who ski or cycle in public while listening to music are compromising their own safety rather than that of others. How much of a compromise that really is could be debated. I certainly wouldn't cycle around a busy city centre without the benefit of my hearing. Skiing without hearing would be much less risky - no trucks/buses/cars to squash you. Might get taken out by a skidoo or piste groomer though!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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saikee,
I don't agree with that statement:
" If a piste user is listening to music while on a piste then he/she is not giving 100% attention to his/her descent."
See my previous post for what I hope is a clear(er) statement of what my POV is...
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I see the matter of music listening skier, boarder, cyclist, etc in another angle and rather relax about it.
If the person misjudges his/her competency level he/she will get hurt. Repeated behaviours can even lead to fatality, say one is not able to listen to a snow basher beeping him/her from behind, so the nature will take care of it.
If the person is good enough to do the sport while enjoying the music then we should keep the comments to ourselves.
What would be beneficial to others is to list out our experiences and concerns to help those about to take up the act.
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Kruisler,
I actually disagree with your statement of
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| listening to music increase danger to the "listener", not the others |
The guy can collide with another piste user if he/she is distracted or relaxed by the music. You don't seem to think that is possible, do you?
In any case is it your assertion that listening to music is not a distraction at all and so s piste user can descend the slope with 100% attention?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kruisler,
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Quote:
Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others ..
How much clearer can I be?
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You missed out the last three words which change your statement to an oxymoron.
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| Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others because you are.. |
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Hurtle,
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Either you agree with it (which is presumably why you said it) or you don't.
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Read it again.
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski.
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This is my summary of others' viewpoint in regards to this matter.
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I personally would not agree with this synopsis.
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I have read it again, and it remains completely meaningless. Nobody, apart from you, is doing any such "surmising."
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was recently riding in St Anton and there was music blasting out on the piste by way of speakers which I was listening to and it did not impinge on my riding. Having earphones in with music playing at a level of loudness that does not shut out all other noise and allows a degre of external audio awareness should not be a problem, I drive with music on and Lewis Hamilton has a fair bit of distraction in his ear piece too. Having music blasting out in your ear-piece so load that you can not hear the scrape of a skier carving badly behind you is perhaps a bit more dangerous than not having music on. Ofcourse on a quiet piste where no one else is around it does not matter
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Also chics are ok with ear phones on because they can milti-task
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Kruisler,
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Quote:
Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others ..
How much clearer can I be?
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You missed out the last three words which change your statement to an oxymoron.
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| Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others because you are.. |
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well it was supposed to be read:
"Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others because you are (listening to music)...."
I don't think this sentence can make sense any other way but at least that's that cleared now..
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Hurtle,
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Either you agree with it (which is presumably why you said it) or you don't.
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Read it again.
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski.
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This is my summary of others' viewpoint in regards to this matter.
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I personally would not agree with this synopsis.
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I have read it again, and it remains completely meaningless. Nobody, apart from you, is doing any such "surmising." |
So no one has said on here that they believe that skiing whilst not being able to hear your surrounding (due to listening to music) is dangerous?
If noone has then this debate would not have started.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
So no one has said on here that they believe that skiing whilst not being able to hear your surrounding (due to listening to music) is dangerous?
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Correct.
People have said that it increases the level of risk - which is obviously true to most people.
But that does not necessarily mean it is dangerous (although somw would argue that skiing itself is inherently dangerous).
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If noone has then this debate would not have started. |
Incorrect 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think this business of listening music while on a piste can be a difficult subject to debate because the user can turn down the volume and get the benefit of being aware of what is going on in the background and so the risk is minimal. If he/she turn the volume up to overwhelm the background noise then the matter is more risky. In any case people criticizing music listening piste user may not do such thing themselves and therefore do not have the direct experience to make an informed judgment. Common sense would indicate that it is a form of distraction and "can" possible compromise safety. However the distraction can also vary with individuals.
I also do not use MP3 while skiing but I do in anther sport so I attempt to explain my experience.
For many years I did not use ear plugs to ride a motorcycle. After joining IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists, sponsored by the Police and trained by observers) I found the majority uses ear plugs. Initially I found it difficult to give up the hearing sense but eventually got used to it. The wearing of ear plugs is to attenuate the wind noise which can permanently damaged the ears in sustained motorway drivings. At 70mph the noise generated at the helmet is about 90 to 100 dBA. The ear plug can attenuate between 30 to 40 dBA.
When the wife refused to get on the back seat, saying it became boring for her sitting at the back with nothing to do while I was doing rally runs, I had to install a motorcycle telecom system. To keep her entertained I added a MP3 player so that she could enjoy the music while I could be driving for hours. To maintain the telecom I am forced to listen to her music while driving a 1300cc motorbike.
I did find listening to music can distract my driving of a hypersport motorbike and have to moderate my speed in order to be comfortable with our safety. There is no doubt the music distraction lowers my response so I slow down accordingly. Other bikers are affected to a different degree. Nowadays I also wear ear plugs while listening to the MP3 intended for the wife. If I ride solo I remove the MP3.
Thus based on the experience of using ear plugs, MP3, ear plugs+MP3 and nothing I do believe a person can adjust to the environment. As I take suitable measures to moderate my speed when I am distracted by the music I have not endangered other road users or myself Therefore I would not consider people without the appropriate experience, of listening music while riding a motorcycling, could comment properly on what I do.
Skiing/boarding with MP3 switched on can be very similar. Some piste users will be successful with it while the other may not.
Anybody objecting/condemning should back up with experience and live examples.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The_Hirsty,
This
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So no one has said on here that they believe that skiing whilst not being able to hear your surrounding (due to listening to music) is dangerous?
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is not a paraphrase of
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski.
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Sorry, but you are unsuccessfully trying to twist your own words. Relentless logic is the way forward and you are not pursuing that way. Never mind. FWIW, I think that music which gets in the way of your hearing your surroundings could be (I put it no more strongly than that) dangerous. If the music is not too loud and you don't get too carried away with it (I tend to, so it's a danger in itself, it seriously reduces my concentration on other things) then fine, go ahead, you will not be a danger to yourself or to others. In any event, hearing what is going on around you eg people getting too close behind you, is likely to make you safer than you otherwise would be. But, either way, do what you want, it's your choice. I would regret your injuring someone else, but self-inflicted injuries are entirely your affair.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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so the answer to the original post is ...... no, we can not have common ground 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stoatsbrother, it seems to be like arguing about the benefits or lack of them of things Mac - no conclusion - but satisfying to some.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle,
This is logical. It is not twisting words.
1, People believe that it is dangerous to listen to music whilst skiing.
2, Noone wants further dangers on the piste.
Then the logical surmisation is that people would want further (or excessive) dangers to be removed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The_Hirsty, a) banning deaf people (who, as saikee says, are more than likely to compensate by taking extra care in other ways, as they do in life generally) is not the same as removing excessive dangers, the logic is in your mind only; b) surmisation is not a word.
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alex_heney,
If something increases the level of risk it is by very definition dangerous (or in the case of skiing more dangerous).
All I have said from the start is that I do not agree with point (1).
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
alex_heney,
If something increases the level of risk it is by very definition dangerous (or in the case of skiing more dangerous).
All I have said from the start is that I do not agree with point (1). |
if something increases the level of risk .... it simply increases the level of risk - it is not by very definition dangerous.
I hired a 164 wide Burton board on the weekend for piste riding and it increased my level of risk ...... but did not make it dangerous 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
alex_heney,
If something increases the level of risk it is by very definition dangerous (or in the case of skiing more dangerous)............. |
Not so in risk matrices I have studied - where 'dangerous' was defined as being above a certain risk level. Thus if the risk of a fatal accident was assessed to extremely low - for arguments sake one in 500,000 years, and that risk was then re-assessed as being five times higher, the assessed risk would now be one in 100,000 years - still extremely low, and probably not classed as dangerous.
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The_Hirsty, The important part there is "excessive".
Yes, it probably does add to the risk, but not excessively so, and mainly the risk to the individual, rather than to others.
You should also add "unneccessary".
If there is a danger, then for somebody who cannot hear, it is a necessary danger (I don't think it acceptable to ban anybody from skiing, in general).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The_Hirsty,
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If a piste user is listening to music while on a piste then he/she is not giving 100% attention to his/her descent. That should be no denial of this fact. It is entirely possible at the reduced attention level he/she is still safe to himself/herself and other piste users because of his/her higher level of skill while descending at a comfortable speed well within his/her capability.
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That, from Point 1, is perfectly and incontrovertibly logical. The first sentence, in particular, brooks no denial, as saikee says: if you are actually listening to music, as opposed to letting it float into your brain in some kind of subliminal way, some of your attention is on it. However, some people do indeed listen to music without hearing it: in that case, obviously, more attention is being given to whatever the other activity is. Point 1 was deliberately phrased in such a way as to avoid the assumption that listening to music on the piste is always dangerous. So we're agreed, aren't we? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle,
So I spelt a word incorrectly. Did you understand what I meant by that word?
I did not ever once state that I wanted to ban deaf people. I did say that hearing is very low on the list senses required when skiing. That music can help you focus.
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Hurtle,
If you believe that listening to music is not dangerous whilst skiing, then yes we are in agreement.
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You know it makes sense.
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risk: exposure to the chance of injury or loss; a hazard or dangerous chance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
| risk: exposure to the chance of injury or loss; a hazard or dangerous chance. |
If you choose to use that definition of risk you will have a very closed, cautious existence. You might wish to consider suicide as a more acceptable alternative.
I prefer " The possibility of suffering harm or loss". If the possibility is very low, then the situation is not dangerous, IMV.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The_Hirsty,
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So I spelt a word incorrectly. Did you understand what I meant by that word?
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Yup, you intended to use a word that means 'guess.' I believe you actually intended to use the word/a word that means 'conclude' or 'infer.' (Well, I am a pedant )
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I did not ever once state that I wanted to ban deaf people
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I know you didn't, but you implied that a ban was the logical conclusion of accepting that music was dangerous. That's what I was denying.
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If you believe that listening to music is not dangerous whilst skiing
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I believe - and it looks as though saikee and alex heney do too - that listening to music while skiing is not always or necessarily dangerous, but that it could be.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman, Kruisler, listening to music while competing seems to happen a lot in slopestyle.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sean White listening to music during his olympic win! Big swinging mickey! Ice dancers listen also!! What you dont appreciate is that they have the entire rink/half pipe to themselves. I wonder what would happen if Johny Wilkinson wore his ipod during a game (like skiing there can be impact in this sport as well), there are only 29 other players to contend with. On a busy slope there may be more than 29 other skiers. Use all your senses while skiing and be considerate to others, nobody cares about the @rsehole that can cause an accident, just those left behind by his actions.
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Roy Hockley,
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Ice dancers listen also
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Yes, and in relation to mark_s' comment on slopestyle, I wondered - when I'd looked the word up in Wikipedia, to find out what it was!  - whether that, too, was something more akin to ice-dancing or other dancing, where the music is crucial to the activity. ???
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Hurtle, Slopestyle does not need to have music in the same way as ice dancers do, they dont even NEED to have their salopettes half way down their back bottom but being radical and grungy is important to the exponants of this particular sport. Do we have the need to follow such "athletes" grunge code! They do not have to worry about anyone else on the half pipe or run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Roy Hockley, oops, sorry I asked.
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Hurtle, Sartorial elegance above all!
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FAQ
