 Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother, do the NHS do helmets sponsored by JnJ? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kruisler wrote: |
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many sports men and women listen to music whilst or prior to competing.
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as per others...prior yes....but I have yet to see sport men/women doing while competing!  |
Shaun White during his Olympic gold winning run.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
Ok chaps - on just how many threads can we simultaneously argue about helmets ?  |
Is there a limit to how many open threads there can be on Snowheads?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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OK, a more serious comment:
Skiing is a lot like driving. Everyone has different levels of ability, experience and equipment.
Things that need to be considered when driving:
1. Your ability varies with many factors (weather/road/time of day/fatigue/hunger/stress...)
2. Other road users have as much right as you to be using the road. They will also be affected by point 1.
You need to be responsible for your own actions
You need to be in control
You need to be aware of others
You need to respect other road users.
You need to drive safely and in a way that is appropriate for the speed of other traffic and for the conditions.
If you can't do those, you shouldn't be on the road.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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saikee,
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If your sportsperson does not listening to music while competing then your post is in agreement instead of disagreement with (1), I would have thought.
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I did say whilst or prior. There are other reasons why they may not listen during competing - weight springs to mind immediately.
I would say that your hearing is one of the lesser senses in importance when it comes to skiing just above taste and smell. If this wasn't the case deaf skiers would be banned.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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ARE SKI HELMETS CAUSING HOUSE PRICE CRASH?
Front page of the Mail tomorrow.
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The_Hirsty,
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If this wasn't the case deaf skiers would be banned.
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What absolute nonsense.
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ELVIS SPOTTED WEARING A SKI HELMET IN VAIL
National Enquirer this weekend
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| PisteHead wrote: |
| bloxy, I need to be more specific now. I don't have any ulterior agenda or reason to reject the fact that a helmet will fail in a direct square impact with a solid object like a tree. However if a skier stacks it on piste doing say 35mph and doesn't crash square on into any solid object then the only other likely head impact will be from possible oblique impacts with the ground as the skier cartwheels and tumbles down/across the slope. In those cases the impact forces will be much less and a helmet will probably or may prevent the wearer from concussion or being knocked out. |
That's more or less the conclusion on the quoted site. Serious injury or death is usually due to collision with a fixed object but in the scenario you describe your thinking about the forces involved is perfectly valid.
To put it into perspective, a motorcycle helmet to meet the Snell standard must withstand two blows on the same spot of 150J and 110J. A ski helmet has to withstand a single 80J impact.
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
| I did say whilst or prior. |
So the "whilst" part is completely superfluous, because it's only prior.
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| I would say that your hearing is one of the lesser senses in importance when it comes to skiing just above taste and smell. If this wasn't the case deaf skiers would be banned. |
Blind skiers aren't even banned - there's no reason why should be - but it would be pretty crazy to have lights shone in your eyes as you ski.
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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bloxy, Final word from me, so long as people realise when a helmet will and will not help there shouldn't be any arguments.
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
I would say that your hearing is one of the lesser senses in importance when it comes to skiing just above taste and smell. If this wasn't the case deaf skiers would be banned. |
What, like blind skiers are? (NOT, of course).
And while hearing is certainly less important than vision for most of us when skiing, that certainly does not mean it is unimportant.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle,
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What absolute nonsense.
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How exactly?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman,
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So the "whilst" part is completely superfluous, because it's only prior.
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You do realise that "whilst" means during don't you? There is already an example above of a competitor listening to music during.
laundryman,
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Blind skiers aren't even banned - there's no reason why should be - but it would be pretty crazy to have lights shone in your eyes as you ski.
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Blind skiers are led by a seeing skier because vision is so important to skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat,
A very good and relevant comparison of skiing with driving. I am absolutely with you on everything you said.
I like to put forward a few differences between the two, not to disagree with you but just to highlight the variations of behaviours by the piste users.
(1) Suitable speed in skiing is much more difficult to judge because there is no mandatory speed limit on a piste. There is also has no mechanism for a piste user to know his/her speed accurately, say to the nearly 2 mph.
(2) It is less acceptable if one drives significantly slower than the main stream traffic on the road or the displayed legal limit. Motorists have the right to drive to the limit permitted by the law when the condition is appropriate. A driver travelling at a speed significantly below the legal limit is expected to let other to pass through when there is an opportunity to do so. On a slope the slow piste users cannot give way to fast piste users. This is not because he/she is not willing to but more to do with not having the technical ability to make room for others.
(3) A slow driver should not be alarmed if he/she is overtaken by another at a significantly high speed as long as it is within the law. On a piste an overtaking at a modest speed may upset a slow piste user’s concentration or balance if it happens at close proximity. As the overtaker has no knowledge at what speed the slow piste user would be comfortable with for being overtaken and so it becomes a matter of the judgement by the fast piste user.
(4) The directions of travelling cars are more predictable on paved roads with lanes clearly marked out and so accidents can be avoided by keeping a sufficient distance between vehicles. Piste users activities on the piste are more random and difficult to predict. A bigger margin on space is warranted for the inherent unpredictability.
(5) Beginners, first timers, intermediates, experts, children, oldies, skiing champions etc can all be on the same run. On roads we do not expect people to drive until they have passed the mandatory tests and so there is a minimum standard in driving on public roads. There is none on a piste. If a driver does not have the minimum skill we can expect to see a “learner” plate displayed. On a piste inexperienced piste users are only detectable by their movements.
(6) One only needs to worry about one vehicle in front on a road. On a piste one has to worry about groups of people at different parts of descent.
I rather look at it as a matter of competing for space. If we give space enough for everybody then all of us can enjoy skiing/boarding. The sooner one accepts it the longer one enjoys the sport.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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saikee, regarding point 3, have you ever been passed by a bike doing 60 when you're stuck crawling along in a traffic jam on a dual carriageway?
Have you ever noticed how traffic on the opposite carriageway slows down when there's an accident?
Neither is alarming, but it certainly seems to distract many.
Perhaps on point 4 there should be an equivalent of the 2 second rule, based on a skier's reaction/avoidance time - and allowing for the lack of good crumple zones in humans!
Just did a quick bit of maths... at 100km/h the 2 second rule gives 55m gap. At 40km/h it's 22m and at 20km/h it's 11m. I'd guess that 20km/h is probably a "fast" speed on a busy blue run, so you should be allowing an 11m gap between you and anyone who is in front of you, or could end up in front of you.
(that's based on a skier's ability to react and avoid as quickly as you should be able to in a car)
Point 5 is an interesting one. Look at the accident stats for GB and compare them to NI stats. The peak accident rate in NI is not at age 17, but at 18, and it is a lower peak. That's cause of "R" plates, which restrict a driver who has just passed their test to driving at a max of 45mph for the first year - it gives them a chance to gain experience, while warning others of their lack of experience.
Point 6 - as well as looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, you should be looking as far ahead as safely possible, and behind you, and to a certain extent those beside you as well. Just looking 1 car ahead is what causes pile-ups.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some time ago I was skiing down the fall line of a piste just to one side of (and parallel to) a man in ski school uniform. At the same moment we happened to turn towards each other and, seeing the danger of collision, at the same moment at once turned away. As we continued down he shouted angrily at me to ski in control. We were equally innocent or equally to blame (I was actually skiing considerably slower than usual due to the congested slope) but he made the assumption that it was my fault. (I, of course, thought initially that it was his fault because (I think) he hadn't noticed I was there and I was turning regularly). We all like to think we behaved reasonably so any problem was the other person's fault.
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| PisteHead wrote: |
| bloxy, Final word from me, so long as people realise when a helmet will and will not help there shouldn't be any arguments. |
Definitely. Know the facts and make an informed decision it's your choice.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
laundryman,
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So the "whilst" part is completely superfluous, because it's only prior.
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You do realise that "whilst" means during don't you? There is already an example above of a competitor listening to music during. |
One competitor in one sport. A compelling argument indeed. Not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
Good point of a car passing a cyclist. My attention was focused on car overtaking car.
Agree the need to slow down and not to overtake cyclists at a speed that will alarm them. Whenever I could I would use the opposite lane to pass the cyclists, horses and walkers.
The Hirsty
I think the argument that a sportsperson continues to listen to music while competing is uncommon and I could very well be doing it myself if I have no chance of wining so might as well enjoying myself in the process.
This is always a chance that someone is shouting to you to alert certain danger in front of you. How you treat other piste users and how good you gauge your ability with a reduction of senses or attention in entirely your choice. They are many people able to use the piste while listening to the music but there are also those who can't, those who won't and those who could only at injuring himself/herself or/and others.
People with disability can also ski but probably not at the speed you would want to adhere to so they should not come into the argument.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 14-02-08 17:18; edited 1 time in total
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Hurtle,
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What absolute nonsense.
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How exactly? |
I think alex_heney has just about covered it.  And having to cope with actually being deaf is rather different from wilfully impairing your hearing.
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laundryman,
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One competitor in one sport. A compelling argument indeed. Not.
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I seem to recall watching a video of Big Mountain comps where a couple of skiers and boarders were playing music on their personal music players.
From watching Eurosports several cyclist (road and mountain) listen to personal music players as do several the ultra runners (including one who works with my partner).
As for Shaun White - a gold medalist in the olympics. Someone who won the most coveted prize in his sport is quite compelling. A more compelling argument than puting the word "not" at the end of a sentence.
You haven't given any evidence that not being able to hear your surroundings whilst skiing is inherently dangerous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle,
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I think alex_heney has just about covered it. And having to cope with actually being deaf is rather different from wilfully impairing your hearing.
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I don't think that covered it at all.
If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski. I personally would not agree with this synopsis.
I am not in any way slighting a disability but pointing out that listen to music whilst skiing is not the excessive danger made out.
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I think implying a piste user listening to music is no worse than a deaf skier/boarder by the degree of the senses felt can be a nonsense.
This is because the former is not giving a 100% attention in descending the slope while the latter is. The latter may be even more concentrated as he/she is disadantaged for not able to hear the sounds and noises relevant to his/her manoeuvres.
I don't think I am attacking the former as I wrote in first post with
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| It is entirely possible at the reduced attention level he/she is still safe to himself/herself and other piste users because of his/her higher level of skill while descending at a comfortable speed well within his/her capability. |
followed by
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| It is also equally possible that a music-listening piste user could get it wrong with his/her level of competence and become a safety hazard on the piste. |
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 14-02-08 17:45; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| saikee wrote: |
I know it is impossible for us to bottom out the safety issues but can we have common agreements on the following items?
(1) If a piste user is listening to music while on a piste then he/she is not giving 100% attention to his/her descent. That should be no denial of this fact. It is entirely possible at the reduced attention level he/she is still safe to himself/herself and other piste users because of his/her higher level of skill while descending at a comfortable speed well within his/her capability. It is also equally possible that a music-listening piste user could get it wrong with his/her level of competence and become a safety hazard on the piste. The persistence of this behaviour depends on that person’s judgement only. None of us can judge on his/her behalf. There are others who would not listen to music while on the move because they are considerate. Equally there other piste users not doing it because they can’t at their currently skiing/boarding level.
(2) Collision risks can be different at peak and off peak holiday times, in popular and rarely visited resorts, between large and small domains and final on different grades of slopes. There appears that the blue slope has the most piste collisions as it is the logical choice for the green and inexperienced piste users. While an inexperienced piste user may take great care not to crash into the others he/she may be hit by other inexperienced piste users who do not exercise the same level of care. Mistakes do happen and there seem be more coming from the inexperienced sector of the piste users. Therefore the remarks and accidents voiced by inexperienced piste users, based on their personal bad experience with the crashes, are certainly factual but may not be truly representative of the whole skiing scene.
Thus while preaching safety to others is noble we have to understand every piste user has his/her circumstance and different experiences. The plead may be relevant or irrelevant to them. Therefore the best way is to let others to have your facts and stop speculating their safety or calling others daft/mad or taking unnecessary risks when they do not partake in the your approach to safety. |
something that was bothering me ..... why do we need common agreement on the above items?
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
| I am ... pointing out that listen to music whilst skiing is not the excessive danger made out. |
For my part, I've not said that. Merely that it cannot automatically be supposed to have no impact, other things being equal. I don't suppose humans would have evolved or learned to shout warnings to each other, if hearing had no relevance to safety.
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You know it makes sense.
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saikee,
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I think implying a piste user listening to music is no worse than a deaf skier/boarder by the degree of the senses felt can be a nonsense.
This is because the former is not giving a 100% attention in descending the slope while the latter is. The latter may be even more concentrated as he/she is disadantaged for not able to hear the sounds and noises relevant to his/her manoeuvres.
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As I said at the start
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| Listening to music can help you focus. |
So if music can help you focus then it isn't a distraction.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
From watching Eurosports several cyclist (road and mountain) listen to personal music players as do several the ultra runners (including one who works with my partner).
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Hate to break it to you, road cyclists are not listening to music on their earphones. They are receiving tactics and data from their team base.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat,
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Hate to break it to you, road cyclists are not listening to music on their earphones. They are receiving tactics and data from their team base.
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Which would you find more distracting?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski
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What a load of b***cks!!
You've just got your blinkers on and draw conclusions that no one else suggest..
Hearing does contribute to knowing your surroundings , therefore impaired/lack of hearing reduces your awareness of your surroundings..fact..otherwise mother nature would not have bothered with ears.. You are trying to tell us that hearing is not useful on a slope since people can't react in time.. True sometimes, but false in many cases... No one suggested that not hearing completely disables a skier, only that it takes away one of its tools to know about potential problems..
Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others because you are..but don't try and tell me that not hearing what is going on around you has no effect on being aware of your surroundings..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat,
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Hate to break it to you, road cyclists are not listening to music on their earphones. They are receiving tactics and data from their team base.
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Which would you find more distracting? |
If I was racing, I'd find music that wasn't giving me a good rhythm for the speed I was trying to achieve at the time.
Someone occassionally telling me how far ahead/behind others, or my speed, wouldn't distract from what I was there to do.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle,
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Either you agree with it (which is presumably why you said it) or you don't.
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Read it again.
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski.
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This is my summary of others' viewpoint in regards to this matter.
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I personally would not agree with this synopsis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops,
Not at all.
In some previous threads on wearing helmet SH are biting the head off of each other. There were so much we disagreed.
I raised this thread to see what common ground we could see with each other. The mood is a lot better and there is only minor arguments like listening to music has a positive or negative effect to skiing/boarding.
If we start with areas in reasonable agreement we could understand better why we disagree on other items.
You can disagree with everything!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| The_Hirsty wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat,
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Hate to break it to you, road cyclists are not listening to music on their earphones. They are receiving tactics and data from their team base.
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Which would you find more distracting? |
It's not continuous background noise/music so only "distract" them a few seconds at a time..It's not like they are discussing the point of life on earth or debating the impact of religious fanatism on the latest round of premiership games...
Plus they are professionals, not your average cyclist..
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I think we can take it that there's not much ground.
A good effort though saikee.
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| Kruisler wrote: |
| ...debating the impact of religious fanatism on the latest round of premiership games... |
I'm just picturing Lance Armstrong being sponsored by the Daily Express. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, doesn't it have a picture of a bloke with a strong arm holding a lance on its masthead?
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| Kruisler wrote: |
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If we take the premise that skiing whilst unable to hear your surroundings is dangerous then we must surmise that people who cannot hear their surroundings should not be allowed to ski
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What a load of b***cks!!
You've just got your blinkers on and draw conclusions that no one else suggest..
Hearing does contribute to knowing your surroundings , therefore impaired/lack of hearing reduces your awareness of your surroundings..fact..otherwise mother nature would not have bothered with ears.. You are trying to tell us that hearing is not useful on a slope since people can't react in time.. True sometimes, but false in many cases... No one suggested that not hearing completely disables a skier, only that it takes away one of its tools to know about potential problems..
Just listen to your music, I don't believe for a second that you are a danger to others because you are..but don't try and tell me that not hearing what is going on around you has no effect on being aware of your surroundings.. |
Blinkered? Because my viewpoint is not in the majority? Because I am arguing my point?
I am making a point about how listening to music is far less dangerous than made out here. A point about a specific situation not about the evolution of hearing.
I think in your last paragraph that you are implying that I am dangerous on the slopes. Can I ask how you came to this assesment other than that I listen to music? Have you skied with me?
Can I also point out that I haven't sworn at or about anyone once in this debate I would appreciate the same courtesy
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FAQ
