 Poster: A snowHead
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Pointers that mean something to me, but may not to you. (I’ll try to expand/explain them later)
1. You can’t begin a new turn until you’ve finished the old one. (this will be misunderstood until explained!)
2. 2-4-2
3. Feet closer together is easier on the knees.
4. Start the turn by lifting your big toe.
5. Relax the outside leg
These are what I took away from the EpicSki Academy in Aspen 2 weeks ago. My instructor was Roger Kane. I'm an OK skier, not likely to win any prizes, apart from the person havig the most fun.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 7-02-08 18:58; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
1. You can’t begin a new turn until you’ve finished the old one. (this will be misunderstood until explained!)
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I think I know what you mean, but you really can! I see people starting a new turn before they've finished the old one all the time, mostly out of control heel tossers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OK, let's bite at it. (it's how you eat an elephant - one bite at a time)
The first three are all linked, and all about Transition.
1. You can’t begin a new turn until you’ve finished the old one.
Your skis need to finish one turn before they begin the next one. If they are still engaged on edge, then they aren't ready for the new turn. The edges need to be released. If not, then you end up in a situation where one (or both) ski is stopping you from being able to flow into the next turn. (a stem/wedge/step may result)
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 7-02-08 18:57; edited 1 time in total
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2. 2-4-2
I've heard it many times before, and in different ways, but you can't ski 2 edges to 2 edges without going through 4 edges. (unless you jump the turn)
The skis need to be flat (4 edges on the snow) at some point between one turn and the next. Following on from the first point, they both need to be flat at the same time, if not, you haven't released the old turn.
If you're having problems starting turns, then work on holding the transition longer to make sure you're in control and have fully finished the old turn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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3. Feet closer together is easier on the knees.
Way back in the mid 90s when I learned to ski in Austria and France, I was told to have a goalkeeper's stance. Ever since, I've been trying to get my legs closer together. My legs are still wide apart, but sometimes I manage to get them in closer. When I do, it's a lot easier on the rest of my body to make turns without gross movements.
We're not talking about boots touching, but I should work on a stance that is narrower than it was.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
3. Feet closer together is easier on the knees.
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Doesn't stance vary depending on what you're skiing and how you're skiing it? I try to have a 'neutral' position which is hip width apart, so my legs (especially knees) are in their natural position. I'll narrow from that position for deep snow and bumps, and widen from it for high speed turns.
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4. Start the turn by lifting your big toe.
The turn begins with the inside ski (knew that already). By "inside" I mean that it's the left ski if you're turning left, and the right ski if you're turning right - it's inside the arc of the other ski.
Starting a turn is not about picking up the inside foot, or pushing the inside knee into the turn, or even tipping the inside foot. Simply lifting the big toe of your inside foot is enough to get the turn going. After that, then fire up the bigger muscles moving up from the foot to ankle to calf to thigh to hip. They can take care of the turn with their strength, but the finesse comes from the big toe/foot.
This is worth practising on a cat track or green before taking it further.
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5. Relax the outside leg
(this could be unpopular here, given other threads)
To make the transition from one turn to the other, rather than extending the inside leg, soften the outside one. Either way is valid, but by softening the outside leg, you are keeping your body more stable and closer to the slope (particularly useful on steeper stuff where you may not want to be moving further away from the slope). As you go through the transition, you put more pressure on the former inside leg, but you don't need to extend it much.
This also cuts down on some of the up/down movement, and leads to a quieter upper body.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
3. Feet closer together is easier on the knees.
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Doesn't stance vary depending on what you're skiing and how you're skiing it? I try to have a 'neutral' position which is hip width apart, so my legs (especially knees) are in their natural position. I'll narrow from that position for deep snow and bumps, and widen from it for high speed turns. |
Yes, it does vary, but for me, my width at all times was too wide. What I thought was "neutral" was closer to shoulder width than hips, but by thinking about it, if I'm not looking to do high speed turns, then I can ski a lot more efficiently with my legs closer together.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Yes, it does vary, but for me, my width at all times was too wide. What I thought was "neutral" was closer to shoulder width than hips, but by thinking about it, if I'm not looking to do high speed turns, then I can ski a lot more efficiently with my legs closer together. |
Shoulder width, for a bloke, is a bit too wide I think.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
4. Start the turn by lifting your big toe.
The turn begins with the inside ski (knew that already). By "inside" I mean that it's the left ski if you're turning left, and the right ski if you're turning right - it's inside the arc of the other ski.
Starting a turn is not about picking up the inside foot, or pushing the inside knee into the turn, or even tipping the inside foot. Simply lifting the big toe of your inside foot is enough to get the turn going. After that, then fire up the bigger muscles moving up from the foot to ankle to calf to thigh to hip. They can take care of the turn with their strength, but the finesse comes from the big toe/foot.
This is worth practising on a cat track or green before taking it further. |
I've never read any Harb stuff - is this the famous (or infamous?) phantom move? Or is that something else?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, phantom move is pick up the inside ski and tip it into the turn. Not sure if the big toe lift has a name.
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Wear The Fox Hat, ta. What's "phantom" about it if you pick up the ski?
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, reckon the 'phantom' bit comes in from the combination of pick up and tip to little toe so that the tip to little toe hides the pick up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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comprex, thanks. I tried to read some of the Harb stuff, but it was a bit too messianic for me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, I think I'd argue that your comment ONLY applies if at the end of a turn you settle into a constant traverse. Otherwise you/we/us/me can begin a turn at any point in any other movement . . . which is what we do in response to terrain.
On a fat wide piste I've no issue with your comment . . . in the real world of jibbing through the trees in your pics . . . you're talking bollux. The initiation of a turn may well be a twitch of a toe but it's not an absolute that it's at the end (in the completed sense) of the prior turn.
There is far too much 'USP' (Unique Selling Point) and money grabbing in the promotion of ski technique. KISS our structured plastic bases and stop anal gazing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, I think I'd argue that your comment ONLY applies if at the end of a turn you settle into a constant traverse. |
I think keeping a constant speed is the key. It doesn't have to end in a traverse for the turn to be finished, but it should not mean a speed increased which is checked by throwing the skis sideways to scrub off a bit of pace.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, I think the key here is the assumption that we all ski 'perfectly'. Yes, its easy to do all that is expected of us if we have no fear and are completely committed to the 'fall line' . . .
. . . regrettably, that's bollux. Every last one of us has a point of congruence where our skills and our autonomic response to our environment meet with the necessities of the hill . . .
I think I've just invented something . . . skiing bio-rhythm  need to think about this
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| Masque wrote: |
rob@rar, I think the key here is the assumption that we all ski 'perfectly'. Yes, its easy to do all that is expected of us if we have no fear and are completely committed to the 'fall line' . . .
. . . regrettably, that's bollux. Every last one of us has a point of congruence where our skills and our autonomic response to our environment meet with the necessities of the hill . . .
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Couldn't agree more, but having a goal to aim for (in this case using turn shape to maintain a reasonably constant speed, regardless of terrain and snow conditions) seems a good thing? No? The key criterion I use for deciding when a turn is complete is whether it keeps me from accelerating or decelerating too much. When I get that right (regrettably not often enough) it feels like I'm flowing down the hill.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
5. Relax the outside leg
(this could be unpopular here, given other threads)
To make the transition from one turn to the other, rather than extending the inside leg, soften the outside one. Either way is valid, but by softening the outside leg, you are keeping your body more stable and closer to the slope (particularly useful on steeper stuff where you may not want to be moving further away from the slope). As you go through the transition, you put more pressure on the former inside leg, but you don't need to extend it much.
This also cuts down on some of the up/down movement, and leads to a quieter upper body. |
Relax the outside leg, so that your hips start moving across your feet, feel the skis flat on the snow, at that point extend the former inside leg. Extending the inside leg before the skis go flat, means that the old uphill edge is pressured, rather than the new edge, therefore wasted pressure.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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of course your outside leg shouldn't be "braced" in the first place 
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| Masque wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat, I think I'd argue that your comment ONLY applies if at the end of a turn you settle into a constant traverse. Otherwise you/we/us/me can begin a turn at any point in any other movement . . . which is what we do in response to terrain.
On a fat wide piste I've no issue with your comment . . . in the real world of jibbing through the trees in your pics . . . you're talking bollux. The initiation of a turn may well be a twitch of a toe but it's not an absolute that it's at the end (in the completed sense) of the prior turn.
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Masque, I think I'd argue that, certainly one can begin a turn at any point in any other movement, yet beginning that turn involves shifting the centre of mass onto the base of support defined by the new turn.
That shift thereby also constitutes the end of the old turn: the centre of mass is no longer above the base of support defined by the old turn.
And, terrain doesn't matter.
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Masque, it doesn't depend on you ending the turn in a traverse, just that your skis can't start a new turn until you've released them from the old one. If you're in a tight situation, you might still be pointing the tips down the hill, but without releasing the old edges, the skis can't engage the new ones.
(sometimes it's hard to explain what you take away in words that others will get the same out of that you do!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, thanks for adding the extra bit of explanation!
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I don't think there's a right or wrong when it comes to initiating with inside or outside leg. I believe it has to do with which physical initiator or mental trigger works for the individual. For me, it's the old inside leg that has it, not the new inside leg. One absolute for me is leg extension. I think it's important if to do a crossover turn, which I think the majority of good turns should be.
On another note, it's common on inspecting the tracks of a highly skilled carver to see 2 clean arcing tracks, then at the transition point the tracks abruptly end only to resume millimetres after, with 2 further clean arcing tracks on a line on the same trajectory but for being offset inside of the new turn by a single ski's width, ie very little time is spent on flat skis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| On another note, it's common on inspecting the tracks of a highly skilled carver to see 2 clean arcing tracks, then at the transition point the tracks abruptly end only to resume millimetres after, with 2 further clean arcing tracks on a line on the same trajectory but for being offset inside of the new turn by a single ski's width, ie very little time is spent on flat skis. |
I totally agree, but if you're not highly skilled, and you need to regroup, then rather than forcing into a turn, maybe hold the transition for up to a ski's length.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, as I see it there could be external influences for the choice: old inside takes a bit longer and so probably isn't the best choice for tight lines; relaxing outside works best near fall line so might be a good choice for ice but a bad one for a line adjustment.
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slikedges, Like you say the skis will actually be flat for very little time indeed and of course they wont stay flat as there is no pause in the process of the skis rolling from their old edge to the new. It's just a matter of perfect timing to anticipate the precise moment the skis become flat to initiate the extension. As I've said any extension before this moment is wasted.
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You know it makes sense.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| I don't think there's a right or wrong when it comes to initiating with inside or outside leg. I believe it has to do with which physical initiator or mental trigger works for the individual. |
I agree, find whatever works best for you and develop that skill. The goal, after all, is very simple: put the skis on their new edges and engage them with the snow. If I want that to happen quickly my focus is to engage and pressure my new big toe edge as soon as I can (dare I say it, ILE as a mental trigger), but if I'm not in such a rush to start the turn my focus is a little different and I soften my old outside leg and roll across the transition. It would be interesting to see if either of these mental trigger points was faster down a set of gates, and whether one ios better for short radius and the other better for long radius turns.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, again, no argument there with you or slikedges. I'm not wanting to say "only this way", but more these were some mental triggers that worked for me at the time (and might be useful to others).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I could be wrong here but for me i recon that for long radius turns a crossover move pressuring my new big toe edge while actively extending my inside leg works better and short radius a cross under move flexing the legs and rolling the edges is quicker and produces cleaner turns...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar, again, no argument there with you or slikedges. I'm not wanting to say "only this way", but more these were some mental triggers that worked for me at the time (and might be useful to others). |
So much agreement - can I really be in BzKs?
I try to find lots of different mental triggers, some of which seem to work in some contexts for me but not others. It also helps when I try to teach to have a range of mental images to offer to people so they find what works best for them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I could be wrong here but for me i recon that for long radius turns a crossover move pressuring my new big toe edge while actively extending my inside leg works better and short radius a cross under move flexing the legs and rolling the edges is quicker and produces cleaner turns... |
It's the opposite for me. In short radius turns if I think about a cross-under too much time seems to pass before the new edges engage. Perhaps I should be quicker with changing edges.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, thats why i think i could be wrong as i am rubbish at turning....  I do seem to remember Emma saying that for slalom she didnt want to see ANY up down movement (implying cross under) and to let the skis go wide through quick tipping of the edges. where is GrahamN he would have a clearer view?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
Relax the outside leg, so that your hips start moving across your feet, feel the skis flat on the snow, at that point extend the former inside leg. Extending the inside leg before the skis go flat, means that the old uphill edge is pressured, rather than the new edge, therefore wasted pressure. |
Nice clear way of putting it..
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Relax the outside leg, so that your hips start moving across your feet, feel the skis flat on the snow, at that point extend the former inside leg. Extending the inside leg before the skis go flat, means that the old uphill edge is pressured, rather than the new edge, therefore wasted pressure. |
Rather than just relaxing the outside leg, what are your thoughts on an active drive of the outside leg into the new turn, as a trigger?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, thats why i think i could be wrong as i am rubbish at turning.... I do seem to remember Emma saying that for slalom she didnt want to see ANY up down movement (implying cross under) and to let the skis go wide through quick tipping of the edges. where is GrahamN he would have a clearer view? |
Ah, cross-over vs cross-under....something that I've been meaning to post up for quite a while (mainly since the "race techniques" thread), but never quite got around to. Probably merits a thread of its own.
Actually I think ILE/OLR and cross-over/under are quite independent dichotomies. I think that, as skimottaret implied, the over/under thing depends not so much on the individual turns bracketing the transition as the context in which the turns are being made. Turn radius is governed by the tip angle of the skis, and so primarily in the lateral separation between CoM and BoS. In a series of tight turns (as in a slalom corridor) this is large, the radius is tight and the skis can move rapidly below the skier. The upper body can also move largely in a straight line. Hence you have a load of primarily cross-under turns. Look at a WC slalom skier and block out his legs - the upper body remains very quiet and hardly moves from side to side at all. Then block out the upper body and the legs are swinging wildly from side to side. You could also consider zipper-lining moguls in similar vein (although the nature of each individual turn is likely to be quite different).
In a series of wider turns the radius is much larger and the ski moves much more slowly, so you have to be much more active in moving the body across the ski to get the new edge angles. Hence the crossover.
ILE/OLR then seems to me to be the mechanism used to achieve the crossover. I agree that any up-down is wasted effort, and OLR seems the most efficient way to initiate that crossover. The sequence described by Spyderman sounds right to me. I think this is quite different to what happens in a crossunder, where both legs retract rather than just the outer one. Again it's also probably relevant to how active the turn is. If you're in a high speed/high G turn you can allow the body's inertia to make that crossover, and so OLR is perfectly adequate. In a lower G turn you probably have to do more to actively push the body over, and so extension of the old inside leg will help. That doesn't say why you'd want to start extending it while still in the old turn though - quite possibly just to get the leg extending in preparation for the part of the extension that's actually useful (as you're not going to bang it on instantaneously)?
It's a shame that FastMan has taken his ball home as it would be interesting to hear his view on this.
And as for "can't start one turn until the previous one has finished". Looking at the level of the skis alone, then quite clearly this is true. At the level of the skier as a system though, I disagree. Yes you can do that, but the transitions will then be quite slow. Remember your body is not (or should not be) rigid, it can flex and bend. If you're in an active series of short-radius, tight carves, whatever, you need to be preparing your body for the next turn well before the end of the previous one, otherwise the inertia and forces requried to make the changes are just too much. Your first active body move is getting the pole ready for the plant, with the shoulder and upper body following that hand, but mentally you've probably been into it for some time already by then. The last thing that gets into the new turn is actually the ski. Discuss .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| And as for "can't start one turn until the previous one has finished". Looking at the level of the skis alone, then quite clearly this is true. At the level of the skier as a system though, I disagree. |
So do I!
The problem is that sometimes I (and I'm sure other skiers) haven't released my skis fully from the previous turn, and no matter what the rest of my body is wanting to do, the skis are still stuck in the old turn.
| GrahamN wrote: |
| ... The last thing that gets into the new turn is actually the ski. Discuss . |
Question on this: What brings the new ski into the turn? Are they brought into it by the rest of the body, or is it the feet getting the edges going?
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FAQ
The answer for me is to get outside my comfort zone by only a small amount at a time 
