Poster: A snowHead
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Having read Swirleys other question regarding test pits for Avalanche decision making I have another question. I posted a new thread as I did not want to thread creep the other interesting topic.
When you guys go off piste do you use test pits regularly in your decision making and if you do is it easy to identify the different layers by eye or do you have use the cube and try and move the test snowpack to see the fault lines.
Can you see the line of hoar frost if its present. I can identify hoar frost quite easily if its on the surface but is it easy to see as a layer. In my line of work we are told that on a clear night hoar frost can form on metal at temps up to +3°c, is it the same for snow?
Also is it the norm to do some formal off piste/back country training specifically towards the decision making process of identifying avalanche hazard.
Guess that was more than one question really. Probably more to come as well, just started reading up after watching the very good “ 6 more turns” film on YouTube
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A few questions there!
I am actually a bit cynical about placing too much emphasis on pits when making your decision. There are plenty of reasons for this including the fact that they only tell you about the snowpack exactly where the pit is (which may not be representative - you hope it is, but it's impossible to know for sure) and they require a lot of interpreting. the only avalanche incident i have been involved in happened after we had dug a pit, discussed it (there were some experienced people doing this too) and decided it was fine.
as to identifying layers, it depends. you can help yourself by making sure the wall of snow you are looking at is smooth and clean. a good trick is to take a credit card or similar and put it into the snow then slice down through the layers - you will fell the densities changing as the card moves through the snow
not sure on temperatures but you do need it to be still for surface hoar to develop - so it doesn't always happen. there also needs to be a reasonable amount of it - it needs to form a definite layer. it's pretty obvious on the surface though
some formal training is a very good idea. most guide-run off-piste courses will have some of this mixed in with the skiing. what happened to me was that as soon as i had a bit of training i was so scared i would barely ski off piste without a guide. then i did a bit more and got a bit more experienced so i am a bit more confident in my decision-making. i am still ski more conservatively when i am making the decisions than when a guide is
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno's pretty much covered it and although I asked the other question I'd be extremely wary about judging a descent based solely on the results of a pit for the above reason. You can normally see the layers but using a card or the pick of an ice axe you should be able to feel the different layers. I run through the block and mark each one then go back to test them with my finger then try and pull the layer off. This has to be done carefully as you don't want to lever the block out but test the layers to see if they slide. We rolled a 2m^3 block down the Corrie Cas head wall after doing this wrong (obviously there was noone around).
I'd definately recommend going on a course if possible or if you get a guide having them spend sometime explaining the associated hazards. Even after this if you've got a guide ask them what makes the route safe they'll always be happy to go through it with you. You can never learn too much and it should all be on prevention although knowing how to use transcievers and probes is obviously essential.
I've only ever seen one slide, from a distance, a long time ago but avalanches scare the crap out of me and although I will go off piste without a guide I'd have to be almost certain (as certain as I can be) it's safe and I'd want someone of at least the same experience with me to discuss every decision.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks guys, I had hoped that this would be the season I would sort out some off piste lessons to start the adventure, I did one years ago in Canada and loved it but kids came soon after so any skiing time was also a break for enjoyment and for me and the wife to have some grown up time. Trouble is we will only get the one week away insted of the four I had thought we'd get this season. I do like the idea of going and doing a course but not sure I want to be away from the family, I travel too much for work as it is.
The latest idea seeing as we have the place in Les Collons is to look art the ESS there obviously but also the ESS in Arrolla which is just a short drive away and as I understand a bit of a hidden off piste gem for the snow training and then try and do some sort of evening class in resort if they exist.
I like the way you both emphasise study, ask, ask again, be conservative. Fits well with my thoughts on it all
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not sure you'll find evening classes in Arolla - it's a bit of a one horse town! The Eagle Ski Club and (I think) Plas y Brenin do ski touring courses there - maybe something to think about for the future. You heard right about it being an off-piste gem. Prepare for long drag lifts though!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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CheersArno, Had hoped to get up there for a look around in the summer but we only got as far as Evolyne, which is quite a nice little village and worth some more attention next season in itself. My theory is that if it is an off piste paradise the the ESS there will be more experienced, Im not holding out for classes there but hoped there would be something around the Thyon area. Will keep reading up any way for the time being
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I still dig pits but prefer the Rutschblock pit over others it gives the best example IMO, but it needs to be dug on the slope in question, and that involves site selection so that you are putting in a safe pit.
A class is a very good idea well worth your life.
The other thing I find important is listening to the snow. Quite often with poor or hazardous conditions the snow is "whomping" as you hike, if it is it's time to reassess skiing that slope. If you can't walk away from a pristine snow field you are already in trouble.
That all said the backcountry here at home is skiing great and the N facing slopes are where the best snow is at. Excellent day yesterday, but I want fresh untracked snow and that means hiking for it.
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Dig a pit on the slope you intend to ski & allways listen to the sound of the snow you can alot by this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As above... looking at how the snow falls when disturbed by your skis, sometimes you can see chunks sliding in a way that just makes you uneasy. I prefer to err on the side of caution and always keep a couple of escape routes to islands of safety in mind.
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I just came back from a 6 day mountain safety course and i agree with Arno that the snow pit really just gives a local snapshot but can identify if depth hoar has formed or obvious layers to be concerned about. It is a good idea to dig a "generic" pit on a slope that is facing where you plan to ski in order to understand broadly what the history of the snowpack is and then make local decisions based on observation ...
Depth hoar is very dependent on snow pack depth and needs very cold temperatures to form.
I found that having a clear picture in your mind about slope aspect , convexity and the wind direction was more important in order to evaluate slopes for slab buildup and potential avalanches as well as listening to the snow as you ski it as scarpa & stanton says.
our guide set off a few small slabs and we saw a large full depth wet slab avalanche during our travels (risk 4 day) so my respect has gone up considerably.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, BASI course ? Tell us how you got on....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ski, basi yup and managed a pass. i was thinking of putting together a trip report but as the course is only for basi members not sure it will be of much use to most 's
great course run by a mountain guide without any BASI pressure that is very much an "awareness and learning" type course, learned loads and got into some places i hadnt dreamed of skiing before, wish i had brought a camera...
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skimottaret, I would be very interested in a TR, not sure I could manage 6 days away but will look at the BASI site anyway. Do you have to be a BASI qualified instructor to be elligable?
Once again thanks to all
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You know it makes sense.
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Gilberts Fridge wrote: |
skimottaret, Do you have to be a BASI qualified instructor to be elligable?
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yes you have to be a level 2 instructor before going on this course so it may not be as relevent as some of the others courses that have been mentioned on snowheads which sound very similar.
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