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tried deep snow at weekend, messy !

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Went to Davos at the weekend. It snowed most of the time there, so there was about 10cm of fresh everywhere.
This was the first time I'd really skied in deep stuff (it was heavier than powder by the way but not too bad) and I found that everytime I got too much spped and separated my ski stance I would get into trouble. One ski would start going off in another direction and then...wipeout time! Smile

I saw some other skis doing very short sharp turns so that they never picked up too much speed and so I tried this and it seemed a bit easier. Is that how you ski deeper snow? If so, it would seem that you cannot go fast in these kind of conditions and it's more:
- feet steering
- light pressure

than:
- heavy pressure/carving

Any other advice? I could only make small turns when I was going faster otherwise I would create a massive build up of snow under my skis and then just topple over the top of it. rolling eyes
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
10cm isn't deep! It snows that much whilst you're having lunch in Whistler... Very Happy

Quite true though, 'carving' is of little use when there's nothing for the ski to carve into. I've made this mistake, and just kept listing until I went in...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My instructor told me to keep my skis flat on the snow and to stop skiing on my edges. I found this quite hard, because everything i'd been working on involved skiing edges.

and gentle turns.
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GordonFreeman, Try a slightly narrower stance, so as to stop the skis being deflected wider. Aim for 50/50 pressure on your skis, although this won't actually be achieved. If you pressure the downhill ski too much it will sink and you'll go straight over the top.
Skiing a little faster helps, in that the skis are more likely to float if going a bit faster.
Skis can't really skid sideways in deep snow, so you have to rely more on the ski to do the turning for you.
Stay centred on you skis.
Try a fairly even gradient, with a decent run off, start by straightlining the soft stuff, then start doing gentle linked curves. Gradually build from there.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Spyderman wrote:
GordonFreeman, Try a slightly narrower stance, so as to stop the skis being deflected wider. Aim for 50/50 pressure on your skis, although this won't actually be achieved. If you pressure the downhill ski too much it will sink and you'll go straight over the top.
Skiing a little faster helps, in that the skis are more likely to float if going a bit faster.
Skis can't really skid sideways in deep snow, so you have to rely more on the ski to do the turning for you.
Try a fairly even gradient, with a decent run off, start by straightlining the soft stuff, then start doing gentle linked curves. Gradually build from there.


That was my problem, I was trying to go faster to keep a bit more afloat but as I went faster I had to put more pressure to turn, then the skis dig in and kabammmm.
If you aim for 50:50, how do you actually turn? Just feet steering?

I found that when I was doing lots of turns but mainly going in a straight line and lots of up, down, ski pole planting, etc. that it worked better but I have no idea why!!! Also, leaning back was a serious issue. On piste I always feel myself with weight forward and pressure on the shins.
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GordonFreeman wrote:
If you aim for 50:50, how do you actually turn? Just feet steering?

On piste I always feel myself with weight forward and pressure on the shins.


As a crap deeper snow skiier I sympathise.

Regarding point one, just ski in a similar fashion to usual, but with your feet closer together - looking back you want to see one track not two. Just doing that will help with the 50/50 bit, but if you can remember to try to do the 50/50 weight bit too it's even better.

Contrary to popular teaching, I try to feel pressure on my shins in deeper snow too; as the alternative (for me) is feeling pressure on your calves which creates a fun time for bystanders.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Two very good instructors gave me opposing views on stance width in deep snow. One said: "feet together, let the skis make up a platform", the other said "feet shoulder width apart as everywhere else".

I think the second one agreed that option 1 is easier, especially for the less experienced, but he was pushing us to ski as well as possible.

As for weight, I try to keep it centered on the skis - pressuring neither calves nor shins. Unless the snow is very variable or crusty, in which case I'm afraid I drop back - a little backseat action is better than a wipeout.

Narrow skis will complicate the whole thing as the tips will dive every now and then, causing a face plant, unless you're really good.

All that said, 10 cm is indeed not deep!
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Okay, 10cm was a quick typing amount based on what I saw in the resort.
On the mountain it was up to just below my knees, may top of the boots. Embarassed
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Another way to look at the 50:50 weighting thing is that you don't want either ski to dig in much more than the other - if this happens, one stops, the other one keeps going and you do the classic helicopter fall Laughing

so you need to be constantly adjusting the pressure on your skis to keep it similar.

going fast does help but making sudden movements does not - hockey stops are a recipe for a wipeout. make everything smooth.

making lots of turns is one way of approaching skiing deep snow and is probably the classic way to do it. fatter skis allow you to play around with turn shapes and get away from the fall line more easily
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Start on gentle terrain, try traversing and bouncing both skis (lots of leg flexion) and feel the how easy the skis bounce out the snow, then when you get a few bounces together take that rhythm into some turns. As others said real key is the 50/50 weighting and bringing skis in a bit closer. If you're on fat skis you can take a wide stance and with enough speed can "carve" your turns, as in legs wider apart , inclining, angulating over turning ski etc. Don't look at your feet, don't worry what lurks beneath, have faith, relax. Once you get the feel for it it's easy and you'll want more, lots more Smile

Falling over is going to happen when you first try powder, one tip when a ski comes off and you’re trying to put it back on is to stick the tail of the ski into the snow at an angle (30-45degrees) so the front of the ski is clear of the snow, then simply stick the toe of the boot in and push down the heel. If you try and simply place the ski flat in deep powder and click in you’ll be there for ages.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Lean back and hope for the best. Wink
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

That was my problem, I was trying to go faster to keep a bit more afloat but as I went faster I had to put more pressure to turn, then the skis dig in and kabammmm.

I think that might be the problem, the "put more pressure to turn" part. You're probably trying to make too sharp a turn. Your body went kabamm over the edge of the ski.

Instead of trying to turn so much, just point down the slope a bit more and let the ski go round.

In powder, everything seem to happen in slow motion.

Quote:
If you aim for 50:50, how do you actually turn? Just feet steering?

I don't know if it's "proper" technique or not. That's what I do.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
abc wrote:
Quote:

That was my problem, I was trying to go faster to keep a bit more afloat but as I went faster I had to put more pressure to turn, then the skis dig in and kabammmm.

I think that might be the problem, the "put more pressure to turn" part. You're probably trying to make too sharp a turn. Your body went kabamm over the edge of the ski.

Instead of trying to turn so much, just point down the slope a bit more and let the ski go round.

In powder, everything seem to happen in slow motion.

Quote:
If you aim for 50:50, how do you actually turn? Just feet steering?

I don't know if it's "proper" technique or not. That's what I do.


It was more that as I put on more pressure to turn, my skis would come apart a bit and then no idea but it was very difficult to hold and very tiring on the muscles.
Definitely need some more practice.
I'm sure it didn't help that it wasn't proper powder, just slightly heavier snow but lots of it.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Also I have Monster 72s, doesn't this lend itself to more short slow turns rather than long wide big mountain skis?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GordonFreeman, abc has it

- commit to the fall line, don't try to turn out of it without really top speed.

- slow down your own motions and slow down your own expectations. Make half the number of turns you think you need to, make each double the size.

- steady rhythm is your friend.

Were you turning in the powder or were you bouncing up off the hardpack underneath?

Wide big mountain skis float better at slower speeds. The IM72s probably didn't float much, if you're anywhere near my size you'd need something like an IM88 minimum to float properly, and actually turn in the powder.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
comprex wrote:
GordonFreeman, abc has it

- commit to the fall line, don't try to turn out of it without really top speed.

- slow down your own motions and slow down your own expectations.

- steady rhythm is your friend.

Were you turning in the powder or were you bouncing up off the hardpack underneath?

Wide big mountain skis float better at slower speeds. The IM72s probably didn't float much, if you're anywhere near my size you'd need something like an IM88 minimum to float properly, and actually turn in the powder.


Well, they seemed okay but I certainly couldn't see the skis Wink I wasn't sinking when I was moving though.
Are you saying that with thinner skis I need to do more of the small turn type skiing - quick left and right turns with bouncing?
To actually do long turns you need wider skis? I assume wider skis would be no good in the trees though and are more for tearing up a wide downhill area?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GordonFreeman wrote:

Are you saying that with thinner skis I need to do more of the small turn type skiing - quick left and right turns with bouncing?


You'll get away with that so long as your energy lasts. It can be done with steady rhythm.

I don't advocate it though. I advocate longer turns and fewer of them.

Quote:

To actually do long turns you need wider skis?


Nope. The wider skis help to make shorter turns at slower speeds. Because they float better. They float better up onto the snow when flat and they float better laterally when you tip them.

Quote:

I assume wider skis would be no good in the trees though


Incorrect. I just spend a week in trees on 84mm, granted not particularly wide, but it was pretty solid crust...

PS If I had your skis and was experiencing that "over-the-handlebars" sensation,

GordonFreeman wrote:
otherwise I would create a massive build up of snow under my skis and then just topple over the top of it. :roll:


the first thing I would do is set the Railflex bindings 15mm back.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 8-01-08 22:35; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
So...what is the short sharp turns technique used for?
Puzzled
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High energy frolic.
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you suggest getting wider skis then?
Can't I make do with the 72s and setting the binding back Wink ?
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GordonFreeman wrote:
you suggest getting wider skis then?


Not if you don't want them.

Quote:

Can't I make do with the 72s and setting the binding back ;) ?


Sure. Make do to your heart's content.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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waynos said
Quote:

try .... bouncing both skis (lots of leg flexion) and feel the how easy the skis bounce out the snow
this is the key to linking turns in powder - sink, pressure & steer in the turn to control speed, then pole plant & bounce so you come out of the deep stuff & can easily steer into the next turn. Watch some
powder video and you'll see the skis come out of the snow each turn

Can be quite tiring on flat slopes as you're using muscle power to bounce upwards against gravity, but becomes easier on steeper slopes as you kind of pop forwards out of the slope to release the skis...
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GordonFreeman wrote:
So...what is the short sharp turns technique used for?
Puzzled


It's just a preference really. Short turns do tend to look better. Very Happy
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
geoffers wrote:
Watch some
powder video and you'll see the skis come out of the snow each turn.


A pleasure to watch. It might also be worth noting, Gordon, that the skis are generally quite close and that the upper body is quite "open" with the back fairly straight.
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You don't want to be back on your skis, but you do want to give the tips a chance to rise out the snow. This gives an impression of sitting back but it should be the build up of snow under you tips that position you that way. Once you have the tips up you can just pivot....I hate that word...the skis through the least resistance of snow to point them in a new direction. You will need to let them go to build up enough speed to rise and the natural float tendancies of wider shovel skis will do this easily. A skilled person can do this by repositioning their weight on narrow skis and some even learn to carve a trough through the snow and never see the tips. It should be just a question of rhythm, stay centred and turn. This will produce S's, it also helps because you have less time to build up speed which is really what can destroy you. You want little positional movement of the ski out of the fall-line as again, too much fighting of the skis against the snow will give you problems. Get out of the fall-line and you'll get into a fight with forces that can make it hard to recover from.
With snow over you knees, you will have to point them almost straight down to get any speed and you rise, pivot and sink, rise, pivot and sink and the rhythm should take over, all you have to do is catch and ride it.
If you turn too far out of the fall-line, you'll have to gun the turn to get back on track and then conrol the speed and start again
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Take lessons. I had the same problems. once you are flattening the skis, rolling your knees and releasing the pressure on-piste you will "get it" in the powder. Until that time brute force and luck will be your best friends.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Rhythm is crucial. As is plenty of down up movement.

When teaching I always find a nice stretch and set people off in a straight line and then in exagerated fashion get into the rhythm of your turns. Attempting to keep about 60/40 pressure outside to inside. 50/50 simply wont work on anything but a very shallow slope.

Its like anything. Once you learnt it then you'll wander what all the fuss is about. Even going back to 204cm skinny SL skis you'll be able to do it if you learnt that way. But these days i'd suggest making your life easier and getting a nice 95mm width ski. Even on Demo just to get the "feeling", and then you are away. You'll find it harder once you go back, but you'll still have the basis to progress and practice. And here is the tricky bit for most holiday skiers. Practice....! How many clear powder runs can you achieve on a 7 day trip? Sometimes none, sometimes hundreds....

This vid may help as there are a few turns and you can see the rhythm and down up movement with acurate pole plants etc....excuse the music, seemed like a good idea at the time !! lol...


http://youtube.com/v/FXxB_W-yJtg

Alex
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Alex A, Nice skiing! Very Happy
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hornster wrote:
Alex A, Nice skiing! Very Happy

Cheers Hornster, just hoping I get plenty more in Tignes this year w/c the 26th Jan ! So much risk of getting none when you only do holidays. I miss living in the mountains big time... Sad
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Even the people doing off piste clinics are suggesting some fatter skis.
What about K2 Public enemies?
...or I sell and get a piste set and an off piste set. Most of the people I go with would probably laugh at me for having 2 sets of skis though Wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
GordonFreeman, IMV if you are going to spend several days off piste, or do a clinic, then phatties are worth a go. You can hire them tho'
If it's just for the odd bit between the pistes, or on a piste that has powder on it, you can use most anything.


It's much much easier on fat skis 'cos they float, but once you've mastered it, you can use anything. So (IMV) for now, stick with what you have, and hire a pair of phatties if the need arises (like having a lesson). snowHead
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

It's much much easier on fat skis 'cos they float, but once you've mastered it, you can use anything. So (IMV) for now, stick with what you have, and hire a pair of phatties if the need arises (like having a lesson).

For the learning stage, fatty would make the process easier. I'd suggest hiring one for a short duration until you got the basic technique. No need to keep buying stuff you only use for a short while.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
for me reading about ski technique and then making sense of it is hard- but just about possible

much easier is watching videos with good and bad technique explained

easiest is just suddenly having it 'click' and getting the feeling of doing it right- from there - for me it is easier to make sense of what people say/ I read.

Hope I'm making sense.

What I really mean is just get out and ski as much as you can- watch some instructional vids (Martin Hecklemen- better than Warre Smith- for me at least).
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