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"Experts Only"

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Well, what with the Swiss setting up a speed camera and all the usual dusting off of the helmet wearing/helmet not wearing arguments I though it worth raising the other side of the coin.

Champoluc last week - there are two pistes, both (oddly enough) leading down into Gressoney which are clearly marked "Experts Only".

Now in some conditions they just happen to have a couple of steepish pitches all perfectly fine and lovely. However last week the snow was all a little tired and scraped so they featured steep pitches with very hard hard-pack and ice over large areas.

As one would imagine, they were littered with folk struggling down in minimal control (if any at all).

So if those who want to go fast need to be slowed down, shouldn't there be some enforcement of ability on runs that clearly require a level of skill beyond the basic snow plough to navigate safely and in control? (There were few people skiing fast but many skiing slowly out of control...)
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yeah, but there are times even a red piste can be as nearly impossible when it's covered with hard ice.

I think the piste "level" marking is always suggestive anyway. Or as they say "relative to other pistes". Wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc, oh for sure, but just to be clear, these runs have big signs in the middle of the piste at the top before you've committed to it saying "This Slope is for Expert Skiers Only" in a few languages. There's no mistaking the intention.

Leaving aside whatever the definition of "expert" is - it's pretty obvious that the resort isn't trying to be "suggestive".

Of those struggling down none were enjoying the experience, at least making the presumption that grimaces of fear and shrieks of terror as they clatter hopelessly out of control towards trees and rocks aren't typical indicators of having fun (fairground rides aside). Nor was the situation likely to improve their skiing (if, indeed, they ever got the courage to ski ever again).
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But for a beginer just becoming intermediate, it's hard for them to know what they can't do (i.e. what they don't know), until they got onto those piste that are over their head.

In other words, it's not always obvious (to their own mind) that they're not yet "expert".

I'm always of the opinion the more "advanced" a skier/boarder is, the more modest they rate themselves. Probably because they've been "in over their head" a few more times than the newly minted "intermediate/advance" skier? wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc, you know I'm "stirring" (just a little bit, although there is a perfectly serious base to my argumemt) don't you? Twisted Evil

I wonder how many "beginners becoming intermediate" skiers would truthfully describe themselves as expert? Maybe the Italians have it the wrong way round and putting "experts only" at the top attracts less accomplished skiers on the grounds that if it's experts only and they survive it then it must make them an expert, right?
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David Murdoch, I fully agreee with your argument - I still say you should have to pass a level of competence before moving from blue / red / black but how this would be policed !?!? no-one knows.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
David Murdoch, agreed, but how many of those who were struggling down those runs will do it again when they come across the sign next time . All part of the learning experience (aasuming a modicum of common sense, perhaps presumptive!).
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
David Murdoch, I tend to agree with you. There is no fun in slipping and sliding down a piste, hardly in control. And it is my humble opinion that the most accidents happen when the inexperienced try runs outside there ability.

That said, everytime i have been "out of my depth", its because a so-called expert/ friend has decided to push the envelope a bit. I still have very painful memories of a black mogul run in Val T!

What the answer is, i'm not sure. I would hate to see resorts putting in regulations to control who goes where.
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David Murdoch, It is an interesting point two pistes off the Bellecote Glacier La Plagne are marked EXpert Skiers only and have a gate style access. I don't know what they are like as I have never seen them open! Maybe Bernard C has skied them?


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 7-01-08 19:57; edited 1 time in total
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Smokin Joe, Interestingly one of the local papers "Matin - Dimanche" ran a readers poll on a few topics on Sunday - Helmets were universally voted for (??) but any form of licensing was firmly voted against (that's the Swiss for you - the near perfect democracy is a near perfect anarchy).

Policing that sort of thing would be a bit of a 'mare.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
martski, totally agree and how many of us can say that when we were learning we didn't overstretch ourselves on occaision? All week looking at that daunting red run and saying to oneself "On the last day I'm going to do that run..." over and over again before taking the plunge and feeling great about doing it? Isn't it that thrill seeking and challenge that keeps one going back?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The practical difficulty in only allowing those who can do it to ski a particular piste is establishing who can't do it in advance of their tackling the piste as opposed to finding out that they can't once they are irretrievably committed to it.

I suspect that could have been put more simply Confused I don't have Irish friends for nothing Madeye-Smiley
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
isn't the 10mins or so of raw fear punishment enough?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
There are different types of learner at different stages of learning:
1 - 'unconscious incompetence'
2 - 'conscious incompetence'
3 - 'conscious competence'
4 - 'unconscious competence'

I have reached and got stuck at stage 2, so there's no danger whatsoever of finding me out of my depth! I know I'm cr@p!

The dangerous sort are those stuck at stage 1 - they're cr@p, but don't know so!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Butterfly, Perfect description of learning awareness stages. You say you're stuck at stage 2, but that is only in respect of the skills that haven't become autonomous yet. I'm sure there are things that you do on skis now that are at Stage 4.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I totally agree with awksquawk on this 1, I remember my first time in andorra, everyday going up that gondola thinking 'Im going to ski down that black run, im going to' all week, until I finally got the courage up to do it, and my god did I fail spectacularly!! but 1 things for sure, I was not going slow!! (on my back anyway!) Very Happy
But I learned a lot from the experience, obviously I wasn't ready for it, but I'd done everything else the mountain could throw at me so I thought what the hell!! its all an experience in my opinion all be it a very humbled 1!
You don't know your limits until you test them, but you have got to approach everything with a little common sense! If its fenced off, theres a very good reason for it, so i suppose if you've got to ask yourself can you do it, then you probably can't!!

Well thats the end of my rant, probably no sense but hay, im new Blush
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Murdoch wrote:
abc, you know I'm "stirring" (just a little bit, although there is a perfectly serious base to my argumemt) don't you? Twisted Evil

I wonder how many "beginners becoming intermediate" skiers would truthfully describe themselves as expert? Maybe the Italians have it the wrong way round and putting "experts only" at the top attracts less accomplished skiers on the grounds that if it's experts only and they survive it then it must make them an expert, right?

I know you were stirring the pot. But the truth is, all of us would often wonder about the same thought of "what are these people doing on an expert trail?".

Perhaps instead of calling them "expert" trails, they should be called "non-trails" (sorry french isn't my language). So as to remove any "ego points" attached, from the eyes of the "expert wannabees"? Wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc wrote:
But for a beginer just becoming intermediate, it's hard for them to know what they can't do (i.e. what they don't know), until they got onto those piste that are over their head.

I can't fault that really, a sudden feeling of invincibility when you get your skis parallel and get down that tricky blue run without falling (at least it seemed tricky at the start of the week). However, I think there's a difference between thinking "Sod it, I'm going to try that red..." and going down a run that ski patrol have obviously specifically gone out to specifically mark as being specifically for expert skiers only. Unfortunately, it would appear that some people really are that stupid (or egotistical...)

By the same token, everyone needs to, at some point, get to that "Sod it, I'm going to try that red..." stage because unless we do work just beyond our comfort levels (emphasis on the 'just') then we don't improve.
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David Murdoch, I know the point you are making, perhaps if they put the words "dangerous experts only" but then it is usually the incompetent ones who make it dangerous for all. rolling eyes

alexsam97, There are at least a couple of dozen pistes in the Soldeu area steeper than Avet Laughing But you must have decided you wanted to show off to the others in the Gondola Toofy Grin
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Last season I went to Pila in the Aosta valley for a few days with 3 mates. 2 were first time skiers wanting to give it a try, the third was an ex military instructor who hadn't skied for 15 years and thought he'd forgotten how. The two learners had lessons each morning while me and the other guy (once he'd realised that he hadn't forgotten a thing!) cruised round the resort having fun.

Full of the joys of skiing for the first time in 15 years he persuaded me to go up the Couis2 chair, which is a nominal red, but which is quite steep at the top and as we stood in the line I noticed a 'Warning EXPERT skiers only' sign had been posted at the entry to the lift. Now this worried me more than a little because I am definitely NOT an expert. But reassured by my mate that of course I'd be good enough, and thinking 'well it is only a red', I got on the chair.

As the chair lifted us slowly up the slope, the higher parts came into view and my knees started to get that jelly feeling that comes from looking at something you don't want to ski, and knowing that you are going to have to ski it. It was the steepest slope I'd seen (way steeper than Trolles in Tignes) and the conditions were hardpack. Very few skiers were on it, and the ones that were looked like instructor grade material.

At the top of the slope I looked around for an alternative but the only other way down was closed (and looked like vertical ice anyway).

So I skied it. I didn't ski it very elegantly, but I didn't fall and I did get down under control. My mate went ahead and stopped every 3 or for turns to give me a line to follow. At the bottom he said 'well done let's do it again' so we did.

For me the moral of this story is that you don't HAVE to be an expert to ski something steep and icy, but picking the right time to do it and the right company to do it with is important.

Having said that Couis2 is only a red so maybe I'm just a big girls blouse Embarassed Laughing
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AxsMan, I've had similar experiences whereby I have thought that something might be beyond me, but I took it on, on a quiet day with the DH, and came out the end of it a better skier and more confident in my own abilities. For example on more tricky/steep/icy slopes, I do tend to ski slower, as I want to be sure I am in control, and probably do a lot more turns per metre of slope than some better skiers than me (apart from the wedel bunnies, natch), and more breaks (at the side, out of the way of course), but of course challenging ourselves is how we improve.

However, I wouldn't call myself an expert, and I guess if I saw a slope that said 'expert skiers only' then I probably wouldn't do it, even though I probably could. I suppose the worry is the people less good than me, who if they saw the same sign, probably would do it, even though they probably shouldn't.

Interesting debate though.
D
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The first time I saw an "Expert Only" sign was in Colorado. I was with a Crystal "guide", we'd waited ages to get onto a drag lift and at the end of the line was the dreaded sign; and it fair got me quaking as I'll never be an "Expert".

However, the bowls weren't so bad - just steep with nice snow on them - so I always presumed they were there to keep absolute beginners away.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Only time I've seen such a sign was on the black run down to tigne le breviere - basically they should have set the slope is shot to pieces and you need to be able to dodge grass and rocks and even if you can it won't be any fun.- it was the bottom section of the run only and we could have bypassed around on a blue track
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Most people i see on blacks cant even ski a red properly and should still be on blues, but people love to think they are better than they really are!! (shows like xfactor/BB are startling proof)
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I think unless you've got red boots, you should stay on the Blue runs, leaving all of the Reds & Blacks nice and empty for me to hoon down. Toofy Grin Laughing
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Last year I went with a friend and his girlfriend and girlfriend's brother to Val d'Isere. My friend had only done a weeks skiing previously but he was super keen to do as difficult runs as possible! So gradually I helped him progress to the point that I was sure that he was getting pretty competent at controlling his speed in different circumstances and took him down the Leisse (the easiest black in the Espace Killy) with a couple of days left without any problems.

On the last day but one we had made it to the Aiguille Percee, conditions were good and we knew we wouldn't be here tomorrow and skied down to the top of the Sache (which I believe is dan100's 'black run'). I half-joked that this would be the best time to try it, despite it being the most difficult black around, and he was rather keen to give it a go! We made it down, he didn't fall once and really enjoyed the experience!

So as above it kind of depends on the company. If you're inexperienced but being heavily supervised/encouraged by a friend and don't have much fear then you may well be able to cope with a difficult run without a problem. If you're there on your own without any advice/experience to fall back on then it can be rather dodgy.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dypcdiver, your probably right, but believe me, showing off wasnt what i had in mind, although i think i left a lasting memory for those travelling up the mountain!! Very Happy Very Happy
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Dr. Will wrote:
Last year I went with a friend and his girlfriend and girlfriend's brother to Val d'Isere. My friend had only done a weeks skiing previously but he was super keen to do as difficult runs as possible! So gradually I helped him progress to the point that I was sure that he was getting pretty competent at controlling his speed in different circumstances and took him down the Leisse (the easiest black in the Espace Killy) with a couple of days left without any problems.

On the last day but one we had made it to the Aiguille Percee, conditions were good and we knew we wouldn't be here tomorrow and skied down to the top of the Sache (which I believe is dan100's 'black run'). I half-joked that this would be the best time to try it, despite it being the most difficult black around, and he was rather keen to give it a go! We made it down, he didn't fall once and really enjoyed the experience!

So as above it kind of depends on the company. If you're inexperienced but being heavily supervised/encouraged by a friend and don't have much fear then you may well be able to cope with a difficult run without a problem. If you're there on your own without any advice/experience to fall back on then it can be rather dodgy.


I think it was Sache. The majority of the runs was very pleasurable. there was just one steep stretch at the end that had lost its snow. We could get down without difficulty it just took the gloss off a good run. I think the hardest run in the area is the long black bump run down to le fornet where the bumps eem to go on for ever
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Spyderman wrote:
Butterfly, Perfect description of learning awareness stages. You say you're stuck at stage 2, but that is only in respect of the skills that haven't become autonomous yet. I'm sure there are things that you do on skis now that are at Stage 4.


Yes I can see that esp if I think back to my 1st ever lesson Smile
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Only sign I've seen deter less than expert skiiers at the top of a expert only runs are ones that read must be able to self arrest. They either know what it means or give each other blank looks and find another run to ski.
Everyone does deserve the chance to try though, nothing like your heart trying to beat through your chest as you ski down a run at the edge of your skills. Twisted Evil
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
dan100, that bump run is the epaule de charvet and my personal bete noire! i was taken down there as a 1 week skier after my friends found santons closed and said "it'll be alright". well, it wasn't.

5 years later, alot more skiing under my belt and i'm de back in tignes in 2 weeks. still not sure i will attempt it.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Spyderman, I think that you have had the germ of a great idea- colour coded equipment. Skiers should wear either green, blue, red or black boots depending on their ability and for the borders, coloured beenies. Shops should ask for proof of proficiency prior to selling said equipment. Toofy Grin
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
richlott, many a word spoken in jest, I think you could categorise already the level of ski proficiency by choice of clothing.

I wouldnt dare to but bet others could:

North Face=

Spyder=

Rodeo=

please do carry on... Twisted Evil
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North Face= watches ITV a lot, 1 week a year in Bulgaria, mostly in the bar, often combined with addidas trackkie bottoms, good at straightlining

Spyder= Still takes lessons all day, but mostly for the fashion tips. Dreams of one day being mistaken for an instructor

Rodeo=Has owned the same noxious jacket since 1987, or possibly 1897, only ever skis in spring. No knees left and slightly incontinent, but happy, may be the medication.

Twisted Evil Any more?

Edit: Tin hat very firmly on.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 8-01-08 15:37; edited 1 time in total
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
martski wrote:
richlott, many a word spoken in jest, I think you could categorise already the level of ski proficiency by choice of clothing.

I wouldnt dare to but bet others could:

North Face= Bought from the Bicester outlet shop

Spyder= Bought from Me

Rodeo= C & A on their Knickers

please do carry on... Twisted Evil


All the gear, no idea. Laughing
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Cunners wrote:
North Face= Sounds Macho so must be
Spyder= More money than sense
Rodeo=Still looking for a replacement with C and A labeling



Laughing


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 8-01-08 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
richlott wrote:
Spyderman, I think that you have had the germ of a great idea- colour coded equipment. Skiers should wear either green, blue, red or black boots depending on their ability and for the borders, coloured beenies. Shops should ask for proof of proficiency prior to selling said equipment. Toofy Grin


I got asked if I wanted Blue, Red, Black or Gold rental skis for Vallandry - maybe that's what they're up to - but what's a Gold run??
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Butterfly,
Quote:
but what's a Gold run??


It involves Helicopter rescues and huge medical bills. Laughing
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boredsurfin, Are you still wearing Prada? wink
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Spyderman, Prada is sooo last season rolling eyes

Shall we start the whole Real Skier V. Expert skier again Laughing


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 8-01-08 16:11; edited 1 time in total
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