 Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone have any tips on skiing short sharp turns as I am struggling to master this part of my technique?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some video of you skiing would help the diagnosis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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maintaining pressure with the shins at the front of the boot is a good way of keeping weight forward. Very easy to get in the back seat with short radius turns. Get some video of good short radius turns - watch it and then practice on a shallow slope - don't go too steep too quickly. Best tip - get an instructor with a vid cam for a 1 to 1 sesh focussing on this task.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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dk100, you need a good range of up-and-down movement (in the legs, not the waist).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dk100,
As in short swings..??
This means bounce to me... so edge and release. The old way would have been, bang in the edges and then use that motion to release the ski and turn them. I started by using the top of a mogul or bump and then turning them in the air...just after a solid pole plant.
Or...straight line a mini wedge.... and weight one ski and then the other ..again after a trigger from a pole plant. Soon, just loose the wedge and straighten the skis. Easy to do on flat terrain. Pretty old school tho' but the goal should be achievable with a quiet upper body.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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same as dg3, get up and forward to allow your upper body to "seperate" from your lower body. Also, start slow, develop a rythym and control your speed.
same asveeeight, impossible to give good advice without seeing why you are struggling
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Develop a rhythm. make sure your are relaxed into the tounge of your boot and try and get your inside ski to initiate the turn, this tends to pull across as the rest of your body follows.
Agree with skimottaret, andveeeight, seeing how you are struggling would be better.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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veeeight, sweet vid, his parallel shins are mighty impressive - and mrtoastie - I guess from a personal perspective I found for these type of turns I had a problem of getting into the back seat and accelerating - my biggest eureka moment came from getting weight forward and using the shin pressure as a self-check AND doing exercises to maintain parallel shins - the good stance, flexed ankles, edge control etc I take as read as part of a strong foundation - which I had in place, but just couldn't crack short radius - still working on them - now focussing on pressure/speed control.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dk100, Change your language. Work on
instead of
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 1-11-07 12:59; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I find pole-planting really helps short turns. Find a line in the snow to follow e.g. overlap between groomer tracks and try stabbing the line with your pole as you turn down the hill, across that line. It's really good for getting your body up and over into the start of the next turn quickly.
Worked for me anyway.
Courtesy of the Dave Murray camp at Whistler. 
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What do you mean by "short turns" ? Short Arc long radius, short radius long arc, shor arc short radius...do you want to keep your speed down or do you want to ski fast ? This sounds pedantic but is all relevant....if you want to ski as slowly as possible but rhythmically and with total control on an icy piste with blunt ski edges I would teach you to do totally skidded, flat ski short radius turns ..if you want a high performance short radius turn where you get some response from the ski and it's edge the movementts and results are totally different...but they all might be called "short turns"....the point I am making is "short turns" is a very vague non specific term - and is interpreted differently from teacher to teacher and certainly from pupil to pupil. First thing in any case is have your alignment checked and corrected if needed (almost certainly) and look at the ramp angles that are caused by your boots and particularly the bindings...this is the biggest issue i have to deal with with every pupil and I have never yet had a pupil who did not need the ramp angle corrected quite significantly and the immediate improvement that has always resulted is most obvious in short radius turns. If this issue is corrected then talk about pressuring fron of boots etc will not arise - most tourist skiers are pitched far too far forward by the ramp on the bindings (this varies greatly between manufacturers) and their boots...meaning they are out of balance before they even start moving...they are out of balance just standing on their skis on a totally flat piece of ground - fix that then look at what movements you need to make to make different types of turns....do not underestimate this issue it is the root of every single postural issue I have ever had to deal with when teaching.....and that means every single pupil who has ever turned up for any of my lessons - I hear you say "not many turn up for the second one"...they do for the second...when they see how strict I am they sometimes back out of the first ! 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| dk100 wrote: |
| Does anyone have any tips on skiing short sharp turns as I am struggling to master this part of my technique? |
dk100....read forum ref lack of ankle flex...i put something there that is too long to write again here but is very much in yr interest to see...especially with a knee injury...too much flex caused by ramp angle errors puts excessive strain on the knee joints....wow...you are getting 5 start treatment here...I told you how to permanently strengthen yr knee ligaments..they could be stronger than before yr injury....just ask Bode Miller or Eric Schlopy or bryon Friedman if you don't trust my word !!!!! And now you are getting the fullSP on how to ski every turn under the sun...aswell as creating your own blend !!!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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First thing in any case is have your alignment checked and corrected if needed (almost certainly) and look at the ramp angles that are caused by your boots and particularly the bindings
Where could I get this checked out?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I am also quite tall 6"2" and do find it difficult to get low down- Any tips here?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hello dk100......ask the bootfitters here on these forums...or ask spyderjon...they all know all about boot set up - your other question..what do you mean "get low down" ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
First thing in any case is have your alignment checked and corrected if needed (almost certainly) and look at the ramp angles that are caused by your boots and particularly the bindings
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What are ramp angles? What is correct and incorrect? If you have a pair of skis and bindings which you already use, how is the ramp angle altered?
Mick
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dk100, I struggled with this, but I've found with my new skis that I'm a lot better. Some skis are better at short turns than others. It's not just technique.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| penster wrote: |
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First thing in any case is have your alignment checked and corrected if needed (almost certainly) and look at the ramp angles that are caused by your boots and particularly the bindings
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What are ramp angles? What is correct and incorrect? If you have a pair of skis and bindings which you already use, how is the ramp angle altered?
Mick |
CEM might be the best to answer this, but I'll try my best...
Ramp angle is created because the heel binding could be at a different height to the toe, so your boot is tilted forward when you are on the ski. Different manufacturers have different heights, and the angle will be greater if your boot is shorter than if it is longer.
As such, there isn't a correct or incorrect ramp angle, but you might notice the difference between one binding and another, and have a preference for one.
Alignment, on the other hand, does tend to have a "correct" and "incorrect". This is about how you stand (and move) when in your boots.
A couple of important things that most skiers would want (some racers/experts may want otherwise for reasons best known to themselves):
1. When standing in your normal skiing stance, both boots should be flat on the ground - you don't want one or the other boot to be tilted on an edge.
2. When you flex, you want your knees to track vertically, not move out or in when flexing.
...basically "alignment" is all about making the equipment work as best it can for you, reducing unnecessary stress on joints, fatigue on muscles, and helping compensate for an individual's physiology to make skiing easier.
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| penster wrote: |
| What are ramp angles? What is correct and incorrect? If you have a pair of skis and bindings which you already use, how is the ramp angle altered? Mick |
WTFH is spot on re his ramp angle description. Ramp varies with manufacture & from my measurements reckon I reckon they are:
Atomic is +2mm (ie heel is 2mm higher than the toe)
Salomon +2mm
Fischer/Tyrolia +3mm
Look, Rossi, Marker & VIST + 5mm
You can check yourself. Snap your boots in to your bindings set them on a hard surface & flatten out the camber. Measure from the floor to the bottom edge of your boot at the toe and the heel. Interestingly most high end racers have their bindings set-up either level or slightly toe high.
Excessive ramp angle would at first seem to be an advantage to get your forward but in reality it can have the opposite effect in that the backside drops down & back to maintain balance.
There's two ways that excessive ramp angle can be altered. You can put a toe lift under the underside of the boot & then route down the top of the toe lug to the correct thickness (19mm) to engage the binding. This method will also reduce the forward lean on your boots which may be good or bad depending on your set-up. It also has the advantage that the solution permanently attached to your feet when you use different skis. WTFH currently uses this solution & I had this solution on my old boots & it works really well. Unfortunately my new boots have a hollow toe lug so can't be routed so I've used the other solution which is to shim up the toe binding on the ski.
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Here's a pic showing the 7mm shim height (4mm grey shim + 3mm white shim) under my toe binding on my current set-up which converts my set-up from being 5mm high at the heel to 1mm high at the toe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is it possible to carve a short turn shorter than the turning radius of the ski? Or do you have to skid it?
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| Quote: |
Is it possible to carve a short turn shorter than the turning radius of the ski? Or do you have to skid it?
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If you place a ski flat on the floor and look down at it from above you will see the arc of the side cut. If you were to imagine extending the side cut arc into a complete circle, the radius of that circle would be the skis radius so it doesn't directly describe the skis 'turning' radius but the radius of the sidecut.
A ski might have a 15m radius but remember a circle with a 15m radius has a 30m diameter so yes you should be able to carve a turn with less than a 30m diameter without skidding it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dr. Will, a few definitions:
turning radius: the radius through which the ski turns
sidecut radius: as described by krekeg
carving: where the ski moves only in the direction of its edge (aka railing)
That last definition is frequently the cause of heated debate - but these are the definitions I use. Carving may involve all sorts of other stuff as well, with all sorts of approbatory/derogatory baggage (e.g. progressive edge angle changes, extension, flexion etc....and railing is sometimes used as a synonym for "park and ride" passenger style skiing), but that's what I consider the minimum for the ski to be "carving".
As the ski (with a normal sidecut) tips on its edge, if that edge is to remain on the snow along its length, then it will have to bend. This actually reduces the turning radius below the that of the sidecut. The sidecut radius is actually the maximum radius the ski can turn through if it is carving - if it's a longer radius then there is necessarily some skidding involved. It is actually extremely difficult to carve a turn at the sidecut radius, as that requires an infinitessimally small tip angle on the ski, and with such a low angle the edge has virtually no grip, and so will almost certainly slide to some degree. As you tip more the turning radius will reduce further, provided the ski can bend enough to remain on the snow along its length. This reduction can be quite significant (well below half for higher angles), but the more you tip the more the ski has to bend to maintain that, so the more force has to be applied to the ski. Actually, as the turn radius decreases the radial force you exert goes up for the same speed (F=mv*v/r), so that does actually happen naturally, but you'll feel it in your legs. There will be a minimum radius you can carve, but that will be lower the harder the snow, provided your edges are sharp enough to retain grip on the harder snow  . In the extreme, with a longitudinally soft ski that can bend into a circle you could probably theoretically carve a turn (ski-length/(2*pi)) in radius (where the ski tip has been bent to touch it's tail) but that's clearly impractical. I could envisage a ski being bent through say 45 degrees though, which would give a radius of (ski-length * 1.3), i.e. something like 2.2m. Geometry allows you to derive the turning radius from the sidecut and tip angle - it's a simple equation to solve for low angles (I did it on the back of an envelope once...but don't have room in the margin here to repeat the proof ), but is more complicated and requires numerical solution for higher angles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Graham,
good stuff
why does harder snow allow tighter turns? is it because it can hold the higher pressures that our applied without the edge breaking away?
The reason I ask is that I generally find it easier to carve a tight turn on a slightly giving piste in that the ski can bend into as well as across the surface of the snow. I'm thinking that FOR A GIVEN EDGE ANGLE the turn may be tighter on slightly softer snow but that you can actually hold HIGHER EDGE ANGLES on hard pack. Is this right?
J
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jedster, In "the Skiers Edge" a great book looking at some of the biomechanics of skiing, it is suggested that as more of your ski digs into contact with the snow on softer snow, this brings the centre of action of the reactive force from the snow close to the middle (rather than the edge) of the ski and aligns it more with the centre of your boot. and perhaps this allows transmission of force and control more easily?
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You know it makes sense.
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Plus I always feel like you can 'give it some" on softer snow. If it all goes pair shape and the ski lets go then it ain't gonna hurt so much!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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jedster, good point. I should have made clearer which of the above I'm pretty certain about and which is more conjectural - and that's probably the dodgiest conjecture. The above is all off the top of my head, but with the exception of that deduction I think I'm on pretty firm ground. In that case I was thinking purely about the ability of the snow to withstand the radial pressure exerted on the snow by the edge without breaking away, but forgot about the increasing depth of the groove made by the edge that will be supporting the total force (increasing the effective contact area and so reducing the local pressure). It also seems reasonable that the reason why you need sharper edges in harder snow is that the sharper edge is better at cutting that groove. So it's probably a complicated function of the snow hardness with a peak resistance somewhere around snow that allows a few mm sink into it. I'd hope LeMaster has something on this, but I'm ashamed to admit I don't have a copy of The Skiers Edge - my request to Santa this year went in too late for delivery at Xmas
I did also think about pointing out that carving (i.e. railing along a bent edge) is not the only way to bend a ski into a curve - but that wasn't actually the question (although actually more to the main point of the thread - as this is really what a "short turn" is). When the surrounding snow is soft, pushing the ski out sideways allows it to bend due to it displacing snow more at the centre of the ski, where the main force (i.e. that arising from your body mass) is being applied and the flexibility of the ski allows the snow at tip and tail to push it into a curved shape and so give you the turn. There's also not a hard cutoff between this pressure turn where the snow is displayed by the ski and the edged carve described above - it's a continuum as the snow gets softer (and you could consider the edge cutting a groove in hard snow the extreme end of that). The need for longitudinal flexibility here is one reason why race skis are much harder to turn in soft snow - they are much stiffer so require more force (heavier skier, higher speeds) to achieve the same bend.
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, has Santa got your request yet? It's a book that I think you'd enjoy (based on what I've read of you in your posts)
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FAQ
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