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Skiing the unknown.

 Poster: A snowHead
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So far my skiing experience on holiday and at MK has involved a trip on a Poma up a slope that I can see the entirety of and therefore I can see what I am letting myself in for in terms of getting down it once I'm up it. This year I will be going up on lifts to ski down slopes that I can't see and therefore won't really know what I'm letting myself in for (I'll make sure that they are marked 'blue' though). Does the thought of skiing an unknown slope bother anyone else?
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No.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Not if it's a piste.
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Megamum, Isn't the reason to go to a new resort to ski new runs rolling eyes
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Megamum, my two cents worth is; concentrate on what's in front of you for the next 30-200m (depending on speed/steep/visability).

If you get worried about the steep of any part of a run - stop looking down the slope and look across the slope to your next turn spot. Ski to that spot, plant your pole and turn. Then look across the slope (not down) to where you are going to make your next turn and repeat. This way, you can take it as it comes and keep the stress levels down. Little Angel
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Megamum, Most lifts go up the side of the slope you will ski down so you will see the slope you will ski down and see people skiing down as you travel up on the lift.
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Megamum, Look ahead to where you are going to ski on the run, and you will be able to make any direction/speed changes in plenty of time. This helps to avoid surprises Very Happy
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Variety is part of the fun...otherwise you may as well just ski MK Cool
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riverman wrote:
Megamum, Most lifts go up the side of the slope you will ski down so you will see the slope you will ski down and see people skiing down as you travel up on the lift.


Sounds like you've been spending too much time in Kitzbuhel. Not so in Val Thorens, you can really get away from the lifts there and have a proper adventure enjoying spectacular vistas where you can't see any lifts. Fantastic.

Megamum, another thought. Don't be afraid to keep repeating the same run for a while when you find one you like. It's great for confidence because you can really measure your own performance from run to run. One part that seemed challenging on the first run doesn't always feel the same way the second time and certainly after 3 or 5 goes, you can really spot the difference.
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No, so long as I can rely on the piste map and my own (rather inadequate) sense of direction to be sure that I know where I'm going to end up: it can be inconvenient to finish up in an unexpected valley, from which it might be difficult to get 'home' or to meet your friends for lunch, or whatever.
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II, so far for me 'No' the reason has not been to ski new runs its been to learn to basically ski to a point that I can contemplate skiing a new different run. Now I hope that I can its a case of facing the unknown.
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Megamum, is it fear of getting onto terrain that is too steep for you, or some other anxiety which is a problem?
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sigmund@freud wrote:
Megamum, is it fear of getting onto terrain that is too steep for you, or some other anxiety which is a problem?

It's a mum thing wink
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rob@rar, good question - I notice that flowa and I have approached Megamum's question in entirely different ways. Personally I am not worried about being able to get myself down a run one way or another - admittedly Megamum is less experienced than I am, but she has said that she will make sure the piste markers are blue - but I do sometimes worry about where I'm actually making for, as are friends and relations whom I've blithely led into unknown valleys! Embarassed
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Megamum, if you're a bit nervous it's good to be with someone you can trust who knows the area well, and knows your level of skiing. I have introduced some extremely nervous people to our area, because I know it well and don't take them places which will freak them out. I'm fine with unknown red runs, being confident I'll be able to get down them OK but am certainly wary about unknown black runs, especially in poor visibility or bad conditions, because they vary so much and because I know the black runs in our area are over-graded (ie they're not that difficult!). My brother in law is very apprehensive about new runs because he suffers from vertigo and gets freaked by "edges" even on gentle runs he could otherwise do easily. When we took him to Val Thorens for a day I asked for - and got - some information from Snowheads about a good area to take him to. He loved the runs they'd suggested and we did them lots. He really enjoyed the day in the end, but had needed a bit of gentle bullying to go and try something new.

The absolutely best way to ski something new, and demanding, is of course with an instructor - you can be sure they won't take you anywhere you can't cope.
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Megamum, I am just about reaching the stage where I will try any marked run without having seen what it is like or been with other people who know it.

But I will still be slightly nervous about "unseen" black runs, particularly in resorts I don't know. At your level (not that long ago), I would have felt the same way you do about blues.

Something else to remember is that IN France (and Spain/Andorra although not relevant to you this season), they don't just have Blue-red-Black, they also have Green runs, effectively dividing up runs that would be blue in Switzerland, Austria or Italy into "Very easy" (Green) and "Easyish" (Blue).

You should be able to comfortably cope with any green run, sight unseen.

Blues, you should be able to find some way down, although there may be some short sections that could be a little challenging.

You would even be able to get down some reds reasonably well, but will definitely need advice from others who have seen you ski and know the runs before trying any reds you can't scope out for yourself.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, I think its fear of terrain that's too steep. In Lenzerheide (10+ yrs ago on my first skiing trips when I had no lessons) I recall standing outside the gondola station and looking over the 'edge' of what was supposed to be a blue run and thinking how fearfully steep it looked - there was literally an 'edge' and then 'off you went' - except I never did 'cos I couldn't get my head round it, even when my friends said they would ski down in tandem with me. I think even now (and I can ski much better than I could then) I couldn't ski over that edge if I were faced with it again and therefore I could get stuck in a similar situation where there isn't a gondola to take me back down - or worse if I was halfway down a slope somewhere and suddenly found a change in terrain that gave me a similar problem, esp. as I can't side slip to great effect yet. A 'blue' may be a 'blue', but I have a sneaky suspicion that there could still be 'blues' and 'blues'.

It's a bit like the survival at sea course where we were asked to jump into a pool from 12 foot high board. I did it as part of group of 3 that jumped together rather than suffer the ignominity of being left there alone on the board, but I couldn't do a thing when I hit the water due to shock. Like the high board with steep slopes its something I've got to get my head round - with me I'm sure its not just down to mastery of the skiing technique. If I didn't need to learn to ski, I'm probably someone that never would have tried to. Now I'm quite enjoying the learning of the new skill and I love the mountain environment, but the fear is still vying with the doing - I've now ridden the chair lift on foot 4 times and I still go 'gulp' as I dangle - though I try not to show the kids. I want to get comfortable with the whole thing this year and then I think I'll progress this is why I'm coming in April - I think me and the slope and my head, and no distractions of kids and I might get somewhere - Its now beyond that I need to be able to do it - now I've got the bug and I WANT to be able to do it, but I've still got to get my head round it.
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Megamum wrote:
rob@rar, I think its fear of terrain that's too steep.


In which case it would be good to develop some "survival skills" which get you down slopes that you can't ski normally. A good side slip will serve you well in all sorts of ways, and should mean that if you do come to a pitch which is a bit too steep for your comfort zone you'll know you can get down it. If you can achieve that you fear of getting onto steep terrain should be eased.
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Megamum,
Quote:

esp. as I can't side slip to great effect yet

I think you've guessed it - that's going to be the solution to overcoming your fears. A lesson or two to get this technique secure, and you will no longer be phased by the odd steep bit, because you will know that you can safely get yourself out of trouble this way. I'm pretty sure that learning how to side-slip was what turned me from a nervous skier into one that feels OK on most pistes. I do still suffer from vertigo at the top of some slopes and on some uphill transport: the solution to the former is just to 'go for it' and not hang about worrying, and the solution to the latter is to close my eyes on the nasty bits!
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rob@rar, ah, snap!
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Do you think its more difficult to 'side slip' on these curvy bow edged shaped carving skis, than it was on the long straight edged ones? Good to know that closing my eyes might work on the lifts!!
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Megamum,
Quote:

Do you think its more difficult to 'side slip' on these curvy bow edged shaped carving skis, than it was on the long straight edged ones?

No, not really, because you are only making tiny movements, not ones significant enough to take you round an arc.
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Megamum wrote:
Do you think its more difficult to 'side slip' on these curvy bow edged shaped carving skis, than it was on the long straight edged ones? Good to know that closing my eyes might work on the lifts!!

I haven't noticed a difference. Your centre of gravity for this manouvere is straight through your arch with most weight on your downhill ski so tip and tail shape shouldn't make any noticable difference.
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Uggh......so no reason why its difficult to do then wink Nothing like being able to blame your equipment wink
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The other technique that I use is to traverse the slope. Not a good idea in a blind spot (i.e. where someone from above might come over a rise) but works fine most times. A steep slope then comes a windy not-so-steep one Smile
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Megamum, it's a good question, about the shaped skis, and one that had never occurred to me. However, I think flowa is right. You're using crude gravity against a nice little built up pile of snow under the edge, and as well as going straight down, you can vary your trajectory by putting your weight a bit forward (to get the tips going down and across) and back (to get the tails going down and across). It's not rocket science, and you should be able to potter around and practice on your own, and maybe ask an instructor if you run into problems. Good thing to practice on an artificial slope, maybe, though a costly way of spending a rather boring hour!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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TallTone wrote:
The other technique that I use is to traverse the slope. Not a good idea in a blind spot (i.e. where someone from above might come over a rise) but works fine most times. A steep slope then comes a windy not-so-steep one Smile

Good point about keeping an eye upslope for oncoming skiers you've expressed the principal I meant in a nutshell
flowa wrote:
If you get worried about the steep of any part of a run - stop looking down the slope and look across the slope to your next turn spot. Ski to that spot, plant your pole and turn. Then look across the slope (not down) to where you are going to make your next turn and repeat. This way, you can take it as it comes and keep the stress levels down.
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flowa wrote:
you've expressed the principal I meant in a nutshell

Oh yes so I did Embarassed I should read posts more carefully! Smile
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TallTone, don't blush. I'm sincere. You summed it up far more succinctly than I did. Very Happy
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pam w, Yes, although you may be right about crude gravity against a pile of snow, that snow in theory will be at different depths across the edge of the ski - its not like standing on a straight edges ruler unless you have sufficient weight in the centre to flex the ski straight as you do it - at least that's how I see it. N.B. I'm a fan of the flexible plastic ruler (straight edged and curved edge) approach to explanation - it was FTS or WTFH that first used it as an example to me and I can see the theory.
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Megamum, sometimes you can think too much! It works fine with shaped skis, trust me. wink With just a little practice you can make nice wide zig zag tracks down the mountain, as wide as the length of your skis. And if the snow is nice and soft and new, it makes a great noise too. Flatten the skis a little to slide, then edge in to stop. You can make a series of parallel little steps in the snow, quite fascinating to look at.
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pam w, Just off to add 'learn to side slip' to the resolutions thread!!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, heretical, I know, but you can always stop, take skis off, and walk down. I wish I had done that once in Valloire when an unknown "blue" was a complete mogul field. I was hysterical by the time I thought to take skis off. I ended up in the wrong valley with an expensive taxi ride back to the hotel - there was no way i could even think about skiing again after that, and in fact that's the point at which I didn't take lessons either, another bad move. it's taken me donkeys years to get as mediocre as I am now Embarassed

Edited to acknowledge that clearly I'm in a minority of one here.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 2-01-08 0:13; edited 1 time in total
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holidayloverxx, with all due respect, I think that's a deeply unhelpful post! How/why did you end up in the wrong valley if you were on a blue run? By walking off piste? Very, very dangerous. In any case, it is invariably safer to keep your skis on in a difficult situation, for the simple reason that they spread your weight. If side-slipping is a problem then side-STEP down, it's perfectly possible to do that even in a mogul field, but don't take your skis off. Evil or Very Mad
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holidayloverxx wrote:
Megamum, heretical, I know, but you can always stop, take skis off, and walk down.


I wouldn't advise that. Usually walking down is a worse option than skiing it....even if you are a beginner. If in doubt, go back to basics and snowplough or sideslip.
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Hurtle, The blue run was a link between valleys (I meant "wrong" in the sense of not the valley I was staying in, it was the "right" valley in the sense that it was my intended destination), and in fact I did side step in my boots down the edge of, and on, the marked piste - not off-piste. The skis had to come off otherwise I would have been seriously out of control, would have definitely hurt myself and probably someone else as well. BTW, I don't appreciate the patronising tone, I am well aware that walking off-piste is very, very dangerous - so I don't do it, ever.

I really must disagree with Hurtle I do not believe that it is "invariably" safer to keep skis on, especially in a hysterical state - and I do mean hysterical, and in fact Elizabeth B says that "usually" walking is the worse option - I do agree with that.

I do agree that Megamum would be better advised to work on her side slip, but in extremis walking is an option if other possibilities have been ruled out.
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Megamum, First of all, feel good about the progress you have already made. You can now do things you probably thought you wouldn't be able to do when you started. So you are worried about the next step forward, the step into the unknown? Don't think you're alone! Just think of how much fun you have had so far, and that once taken, that step is going to add to the fun and the sense of achievement.

It would be great to say to you that you can confidently set off on any unknown blue run and know it holds no nasty surprises. But it just wouldn't be true. You can be ambling along a friendly blue gradient enjoying the sunshine when it abruptly drops into a rather steeper section than you expected. So what to do? Try not to spend too long at the top looking at it - just long enough to plan as much of your route as you can. The fear of steepness is that as you turn downhill you are not going to be able to continue the turn and will end up racing away out of control, so once you set off, aim to commit very positively to your turns - a firm pole plant, strong vertical movements (stretching and flexing) and strong steering with your feet. In other words, do what you have been doing all along , but do it more dynamically than you probably have been doing. Look ahead and pick a spot for each turn and say to yourself -out loud, who cares - "turn .....NOW".

If you find that you just can't manage the turns because of the steepness, don't knock yourself. I doubt if there is any of us who has not experienced panic, or found ourselves in a situation beyond our capabilities (see the thread on Kick-turning for my experience of having to traverse and kick turn because I ran out of the strength to cope with the conditions I was in). All that matters is to get safely down the steep bit and get on with enjoying yourself. There is good advice above about sideslipping (but I venture the thought that you are getting too analytical about it). If you are finding the sideslipping difficult (maybe because the snow is lumpy) you can change to side-stepping down . Just small steps, one ski at a time, skis well tilted to give you a good platform, using your poles for extra stability - just like side-stepping up the hill in fact. You will feel secure doing that, and it's amazing how quickly you get down a slope just by steadily side stepping. One big DON'T - don't take your skis off and try to walk down. You are far safer planting 160cms or whatever of ski across the slope than a few cms of rigid plastic boot especially if the snow is hard.

So, knowing that if you meet a steep section on one of these unkown blues you can always sidestep safely down it, you have no reason to hold back from getting on that chairlift and heading into the blue unknown. And when you do find one of the steeper bits, you'll be more confident in giving it a go knowing that at any point you can decide to sideslip or sidestep down.

I see a number of posts have been made while I was writing this so I will re-emphasise my point about not taking off your skis. The suggestion that you should do so is not heretical, it's just plain dangerous.
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ccl, excellent advice, well explained - I wish you had been with me that day.
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holidayloverxx, My apologies, I didn't mean to sound patronising. I just saw big danger signs in what you wrote and my point was merely this, much better expressed by ccl,:
Quote:

If you are finding the sideslipping difficult (maybe because the snow is lumpy) you can change to side-stepping down . Just small steps, one ski at a time, skis well tilted to give you a good platform, using your poles for extra stability - just like side-stepping up the hill in fact. You will feel secure doing that, and it's amazing how quickly you get down a slope just by steadily side stepping. One big DON'T - don't take your skis off and try to walk down. You are far safer planting 160cms or whatever of ski across the slope than a few cms of rigid plastic boot especially if the snow is hard.
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Hurtle, truce wink

I really like the way ccl has expressed this
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