 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi
Maybe I'm being a bit too hopeful, but I'm planning to invest in an avalanche transciever. Does anyone have any recommendations regarding which ones to get and where to get them from?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Facewest throught the snowheads link is probably the best UK source. Talk to them about what you want. For the past few years the default answer for newbies has usually been the BCA Tracker for ease of use but I think the Mammut Pulse and others may now be worth a look.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
5stitches, Have you ever used one before? If so, buy that one, if you haven't, buy a Mammut Pulse. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
sport conrad did have some good deals earlier in the year dont know if they are still on
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
SMALLZOOKEEPER, I've worn one before, but not technically used it! I'll have a look for the Pulse.
On the purchase front I'm quiting my job to do a season - am I better getting one in resort?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
5stitches, there have been lots of good threads on here about beepers, have a search around. As for buying one, do you have any friends that are BASI instructors? They get a good discount on them... Just a thought. Probably a slightly naughty one too. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
5stitches,
| Quote: |
On the purchase front I'm quiting my job to do a season - am I better getting one in resort?
|
Yes
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
5stitches, well its probably cheaper online, I bought mine in America, it was made in Switzerland and posted to me in England, crazy that it was cheaper than actually in Switzerland. BUT if it goes wrong I would imagine you'd be way better off buying from your local ski shop, some will lend you a replacement whilst yours is being fixed etc plus when I spent a season in France I found that shopping local went a very very long way. I got help with busted ski bindings for free, free test ski's for an afternoon, footbed adjustments all manner of nice things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty, I think I've found a similar deal - Mammut Pulse with Probe and shovel for £240 on an ebay shop, shipped from the U.S
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
5stitches, Beware, Pulse doesn't have the 'Pulse' option in the US only European models have it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| 5stitches, Beware, Pulse doesn't have the 'Pulse' option in the US only European models have it. |
It does but it is on a different frequency - you can get the unit factory reprogrammed. The Asian version doesn't have the feature. Here is some more info.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Gear/Mammut-Pulse
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry i should rephrase that, but better using davidof, 's link.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Quote:Note the vital signs data is transmitted on a separate frequency which varies depending on location. Beacons sold into the North American market are not compatible with those sold in Europe for this function. The vital signs functionality is disabled for Asia. It is possible to reprogramme this feature if you are moving from one area to another. This is possible through the menu system for European sourced beacons but this is a factory service option for US beacons which may be something to consider if you are going to be travelling a lot from the US to Europe (buy a European spec Pulse). Obviously this won't affect a group travelling to Europe with say all beacons purchased in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Sorry i should rephrase that, but better using davidof, 's link. |
Maybe some people have more confidence than me buying mail order for this kind of thing but I think for a beacon I would like the convenience of being able to return to a local (or online retailer) with good after sales service. Ok in the UK it is not easy finding a local retailer but Facewest seem pretty good at after sales.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Quote:Note the vital signs data is transmitted on a separate frequency which varies depending on location. Beacons sold into the North American market are not compatible with those sold in Europe for this function. . |
What does this "pulse" do? And if, say, I bought mine in Europe, and was on hols and got buried in the US am I fooked?
Cheers,
Greg
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| kitenski wrote: |
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Quote:Note the vital signs data is transmitted on a separate frequency which varies depending on location. Beacons sold into the North American market are not compatible with those sold in Europe for this function. . |
What does this "pulse" do? And if, say, I bought mine in Europe, and was on hols and got buried in the US am I fooked?
|
You should read the link I posted. The Pulse detects body movement and tells other units about this so people can say dig out "live" burials. European models can be switched via the menu system to the US frequency, the US models are locked. It is not really a feature I would worry too much about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
| davidof wrote: |
| The Pulse detects body movement and tells other units about this so people can say dig out "live" burials. |
I guess it's fairly obvious but maybe worth spelling out that Pulses can only tell other Pulses about the pulse of the wearer, so you all need to be pulsed up.
Also, does anybody know how accurate/reliable the pulsey bit of the pulse is ? Not sure I'd be wanting somebody to decide not to dig me out if it's not rock solid on that front ?? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
brian, Its about the searchers being sure, they wouldn't ignore you, the'd just prioritse, Heartbeat then proximety.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| brian wrote: |
Also, does anybody know how accurate/reliable the pulsey bit of the pulse is ? |
It doesn't detect pulses, just body movements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| Its about the searchers being sure, they wouldn't ignore you, the'd just prioritse, Heartbeat then proximety. |
Well exactly, if it's a multi-victim situation, and you're going to get the dubious honour of being second to be dug up based on this thing, you want to be pretty damn sure it actually works !
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
davidof, small chest movements isn't it ? ... but I thought that was meant to mean it was actually picking up a heartbeat ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian, all the more reason to go one at a time
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| brian wrote: |
| davidof, small chest movements isn't it ? ... but I thought that was meant to mean it was actually picking up a heartbeat ? |
no breathing... that kind of thing
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
davidof, ah, I see, thanks. Any idea how accurate/reliable ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Arno, raises the critical point here, Avalanche safety is about prevention, understanding the environment you are in and reading the dangers, unfortunatly in 88% of cases, if your searching with an Transiever, you are looking for bodies, so any way of proiritising the search to minimise fatality is welcome.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Can see the Pulse feature being a benefit if everyone in a group wears one but if you are in a mixed group with say 2 buried vics (1 pulse wearing, 1 not) its a big call to not dig the first detected vic on the basis of no pulse while you look for the second. Can't fault the logic of dig the person who you know for sure may stilll be alive but how do you feel of the second vic takes a while to find and they've no pulse either?
Doesn't seem like a total substitute for probing to determine proximity to surface. Any S&R experts written a full protocol here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It sounds like the pulse is what you want the others in your group to be wearing. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
fatbob, And if you uncover someone dead that's closer to you, than one you knew/suspected was alive a little further away?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Smallzookeeper, your statistic is a bit harsh; 9/10 buried victims die?! or am i not reading you properly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
PP, 88% of bodies recovered are dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
SMALLZOOKEEPER, Not sure that is right. Switzerland 1981-1991, 422 burials - 57% dead on extrication. On pistehors they quote about 60% death rates, see here . My reason for posting this is because I wouldn't want people to think transceivers were totally pointless, and use one of Mr Goldsmith's pieces of red string instead...
But it will be interesting to see how quickly ABS and Avalung kit become more widely used.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
stoatsbrother, It is serious, my figures are more rescent and reflect the skiers need to ski off piste. Fat skis and overcrowded pistes are to blame. If our sales of Transiever per client are anything to go by, we need to assume 70% of people skiing off piste do not carry the right kit. I'm not sure how many of the quoted 88% were wearing transievers. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
SMALLZOOKEEPER, Love to see the recent figures and an international comparison. I have not seen anything as low as the 12% survival from burial you mention. I am not an expert in anything - let alone avalanches.
People going off piste without kit is a worry - but I was concerned your post suggesting 88% extricated were dead, might discourage people from bothering to kit up. From data I have been shown I think the 88% probably applies to the analysis of the non-transceiver wearers only, buried in France last year - who were unable to extricate themselves. Of other skiers/burials 68% were rescued alive if there was a visible indication of where they were, but only 28% of transceiver wearers rescued alive if a transceiver search was needed to find them. Previous figures suggest 40-45% rescued alive with a transceiver and the figures on which last years French data were based are statistically small numbers and nowhere near large enough to base analysis of trends on.
Davidof would explain this much better.
Three other confounding variables are 1) Are the French services as fast and as good as - say - the Swiss or US ones? 2) Are all burials recorded? ( if you carelessly set off a slide on your buddy but find him and dig him out - you are probably going to go and get drunk rather than report it to a Statistician - where as all those who cannot be dug out by their own party will get reported, leading to a more pessimistic picture). 3) Many of those who are dead are killed by the trauma of the impact.
Do you wear an ABS by the way?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 2-10-07 14:01; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I would say that 100% of bodies recovered are dead
On a more serious note, if your chances of dying if burried under an avalanche are 88%, then what is the point of avalanche beacons? as stoatsbrother, points out. My figures are closer to his then yours. Also considering that you are more likely to report only the serious incidents any statistic will always paint an unfairly morbid picture.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| PP wrote: |
| if your chances of dying if burried under an avalanche are 88%, then what is the point of avalanche beacons? |
I don't recall the exact figures - as said above, davidof / Pistehors is the best source for that sort of thing.
The aproximation I tend to maintain in my mind is:- Once you're buried: without a tranceiver, you're pretty well stuffed; with a tranceiver, you've got about an evens chance.
So, yes, there's good reason to carry one, but don't stop there - carry shovel and probe too and most importantly, take or even make oportunities to practice searches. It's not the same doing it as reading about it by a long shot! A tranceiver wont save your life whatever it costs - you need the people for that. Encourage the people you go out with regularly, to practice with you too. If they can't be bothered or think it's 'pointless', find someone else to ski with who you think could be arsed to save your life if you needed it.
We tend to do a practice session at the snowBashes and last Autumn a group even met up in Richmond Park to practice searching among the leaves - brilliant idea 
The most important rule of all is: You only get to make choices until the slide begins after that, you are a slave to chance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| admin wrote: |
I don't recall the exact figures - as said above, davidof / Pistehors is the best source for that sort of thing.
|
Yes I've been following this.
I don't want to comment on SZK's figures as I think he could clarify what they refer to exactly.
Stoatsbrother's figures are those from the ANENA for 2005/6, which as he says, may not be typical. However the accepted mortality rate at the point the avalanche comes to rest (due to trauma, rapid suffocation due to depth of burial) is 20%. This is obviously a scientific guess but is based on post mortem results, survival stats etc. That means that at point 0 minutes, 80% of victims completely buried by a slide are still alive and potentially saveable. I would suggest that survival rates for beacon wearers, which are around 45-50% could rise to closer to 55-65% as newer technology feeds through and if people take more time to practise S&R scenarios, say using beacon basins. That is assuming people don't use the gear to ski riskier routes.
I haven't seen a breakdown for mortality rates for off-piste and ski touring for France, or at least I haven't crunched the numbers to come up with one. If you look at the French figures there was a cross over around 1990 for avalanche deaths from habitations and roads to winter sports. This was down to better avalanche forecasting, tighter zoning legislation (exl. Montroc) and road closures and a rise in the popularity of out of bounds skiing.
Excepting 2005-6, the number of avalanche deaths per year has decreased by 5 over the period mentioned. However reflecting something SZK said the number of touring deaths has dropped by 36% as a part of the total and the number of off piste deaths has increased by 21%. Even give the extra weight of off-piste deaths this is a good result for ski tourers. Why have ski touring deaths dropped? There has been no decrease in the popularity of the sport, indeed the number of participants has maybe doubled. A number of reasons may be significant:
i. faster response by the rescue services - now equipped with the EC145 helicopter which is able to fly in poorer weather and is twice as fast as the old Alouette III.
ii. more systemic use of S&R gear - beacons, probes, shovels. - this should be provable by comparing the accident rate but as some have commented less serious accidents don't get reported to the S&R services
iii. better route choices by tourers
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry for any confusion, i re read my file, some 16 pages! The stats are correct but are based on searches with a duration over 12mins. Sorry. We're all safe now. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
admin, dont get me wrong; you are preaching to the converted, i was merely playing the devils advocate. I cant remember the last time the wife and me left our apartment for a days skiing not having tested our beacons. We also always take our shovels and probes.
SMALLZOOKEEPER, thanks for clearing this up as i am sure some of our readers would be wondering why bother with a beacon at all.
davidof, you posted on pistehors.com a report on a new design ABS back pack. The one that would not only minimise the chance of burial but also protect the chest and head from trauma. Any idea when that is going to the shop floor?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
bootdoctor, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
