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Skiing, risk and dependants

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Taken from another thread about extreme skiing ....

slikedges wrote:
I'm with Hurtle on this. The skill and commitment required is not in question here. The result is impressive. If you're a single fella with no dependants, it's your life to do with as you please. If you've got dependants, either your anti-selfish screw or your risk assessment screw has definitely come loose.


http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33562&start=80

Now I'm no extreme skier by a long way but do like to ski offpiste, I have one dependant and another on the way. Age wise I'm inbetween Fox and Lizzard but don't tell her as I'm much younger on the internet Wink Although I have all the safety gear (inc an ABS rucksack - used once in the shop) and have done a bit of avie awareness etc there are many much more experienced/talented people than me who have been caught out - this thread is a prime example http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=33624

To be honest if I had to ski pistes allday I'd get bored, offpiste is still a challenge especially when conditions are like last week in Serfaus (Powder, Sierra cement, breakable crust and everything inbetween). Without a guide I generally stick to 30 deg or less offpiste slopes. So in your honest opinion, if I continue am I being selfish and is it time for me to buy a tank top, caravan and set of bowls?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A question of curiosity, how do you know a slope is definitely less than 30 degrees?

Don't mean to side track your thread. But since you're skiing without a guide, you had to be really sure about the slope angle to be safe.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB, do you think you're being selfish? Do you think twice now before doing stuff you'd once do with narry a thought? Have you changed your behaviour in any way at all since having a child because you no longer consider certain risks acceptable?
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abc, dead simple. Lay one pole in the snow in line with the slope so it leaves a mark. Now use your two poles to form an equilateral triangle. Inside angles of this triangle are 60 so complementary angles are 30. Hence if the 'downhill of the two poles is vertical the slope angle is 30 degrees. (Draw it and you'll get the picture).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Is this the answer the question with a question thread?Wink

abc,
I have nothing to measure the exact degree of slope but it isn't just about that. If it was a very short steeper section with a wide run-out, viewable from the lifts and the avy warning level was 2 I'd probably ski it. If it was a steeper slope in the tress without a steep open area above I'd consider it. On a very sunny day when the temps have increased I'd tend to stay away from the off-piste altogether. I ski with and without guides but generally try to tackle the steeper stuff when with a guide.


slikedges,
I'm not sure if I'm being selfish or not hence the thread. Yes I do act even more carefully now I have dependants.

What offpiste experience do you both have?


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 23-12-07 21:03; edited 1 time in total
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offpisteskiing, brilliant!
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offpisteskiing, Very Happy
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
DB, do you smoke, do you drink alcohol, do you drive your car quickly, do you take the underground, how often do you fly, do you cycle on the road, do you scuba dive, do you rock climb ......all have their inherent risks. It is not selfish to enjoy yourself in an activity that has risk because there are many more hazards to you in life for which you have no control, at least you have a degree of control with your off piste skiing, I assume
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There's a somewhat doom-laden vibe to snowheads at the moment. This is a bit like parents who say they never fly together. Do they drive around in separate cars? Is "Responsible" off-piste skiing (ie not just total mindless daftness) any more risky than, for example smoking, or drinking too much, or living on pies and chips? Worse than any of these, suicide is the most common cause of death amongst men aged 15 - 44 and would have a far worse impact on a family than death in an avalanche, for all sorts of psychological and practical reasons. So get out, learn as much as possible about avalanches, have the right insurance, ski sensibly, cheer up and have fun.
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DB, sorry I nearly hijack your thread.

But to make up for it, I'll give you my "honest opinion" you sought. Wink

If you're worry about the risk, AND can find other pursuit you enjoy equally but with lower risk (that's a big if), it would bring a lot more peace to YOUR mind if you stop skiing (off-piste or on, since you don't enjoy sking on piste anyway) until your dependents are no longer depend on you. The time will pass fast enough.

Keep in mind though, if by NOT skiing, you become fat, irritable, or worse. Then you're not much good to your dependents. Smile

Also, how does Mrs. DB feel? Is she worried? Or is she happy you're "out of her hair" from time to time?

In short, it depends more on YOUR THOUGHT, more than the thought of others on an internet forum. Smile
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offpisteskiing, I like the math Cool It works and I see it instantly, but it would never have occured to me as a solution. I bet you got an 'A' at school. Cool
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Measuring-Slope-Steepness
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
pam w wrote:
...suicide is the most common cause of death amongst men aged 15 - 44 ....


Shocked Shocked

Looks like I survived that one then Laughing snowHead
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w
Absolutely spot on, top post.

snowHead snowHead
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

Worse than any of these, suicide is the most common cause of death amongst men aged 15 - 44 and would have a far worse impact on a family than death in an avalanche, for all sorts of psychological and practical reasons.


Oh dear - so I've got 4.5 years to avoid that one Shocked Having lost my brother through suicide this year I can fully support this statement.

pam w, spot on with that post - life is risky and would be very boring if it wasn't.

I admit to being far more cautious in my behaviour since my kids were born - from driving to skiing to flying to hockey. But I still do them, just perhaps a little more sensible i.e. I no longer need to overtake every car!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm definately more careful now that I have a wife and kids. But some of that may just be getting older as well. You make more logical decisions.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'd say make sure you are well insured and then get on with enjoying yourself and when the time is right you can give your kids the benefit of all that experience.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB, interesting point as to whether you as a father should take risks associated with off-piste skiing (are you, with your level of expertese in skiing, any less at risk skiing off piste than a skilled extreme skier is on these amazingly difficult steeps? I do not know), but this idea that because of having dependents that a risk averse life should be adopted seems flawed. Many many people have jobs that are more risky than off piste skiing a few times a year (and more risky than extreme skiing for that matter). If we all adopted the idea that becasue we have dependants that we should not take risks that may result in our demise, then we would have no married policemen (please consider the feminine in all cases too), soldiers, Grand Prix drivers, motorbike racers, astronauts, around the world sailors, rugby players, competition skiers, paragliders, pilots, firemen and many many more activities or professions that result in regular fatalities. It is ultimately for the individual to decide, as far as possible, his or her own destiny in life.

Make your own judgement and enjoy yourself Very Happy


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 24-12-07 9:32; edited 1 time in total
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pam w wrote:
This is a bit like parents who say they never fly together.


Please tell me that this isn't true. This is neurotic to the point of being borderline psychotic.

Generally people's perception of risk is very poor. We tend to vastly over estimate it for activities that we perceive as being dangerous, such as off-piste skiing, and vastly under estimate if for activities that we perceive as being 'safe' such as driving.

There is also a misconception amongst some people that risk can be avoided totally which is a fallacy. Everything we do has consequences which can be detrimental to our health, both physical and mental as pam w points out. Far better to continue to do the things that we enjoy, but with making an effort to manage and reduce the risk, by taking suitable safety precautions, learning about the environment that we are in, using appropriate instructors/guides etc.

Another point to make is that there is no one correct level of risk for all. What is appropriately exciting for someone of a nervous disposition would not be the same for someone more adventurous. Neither is wrong, just doing what is right for them. Very Happy
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w, you are becoming a shining light. I see your posts and know that I will find some quality. Happy Christmas.
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Kramer, there was an incident in WW2 whereby five (i think) brothers all served on the same ship and all died and since then the forces try to avoid this 'family' risk, similarly the immediate royal family never all travel together on planes etc., bearing this in mind parents who do not fly together presumably are trying to ensure that there will always be one parent alive to look after the children, I suppose it is all to do with your particular consideration of risk
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rayscoops, that's a good example of using a false analogy leading to an overestimation of risk.

WW2 was a high risk time for everyone. It doesn't compare to modern day flight. With the royal family the consequences of losing the whole family could be seen to be catastrophic for the country (to some wink ), and so the risk is avoided where possible.
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davidof, I think your site needs a correction. When determining the dip of the slope(i.e. the steepness) by using a clinometer it is necessary to first determine the strike of the slope. To do this you need a clinometer with a spirit level on and then the clino needs to be placed horizontally parallel to the slope with the spirit level blanced centre. take you finger and draw in teh slope a line parallel to this plane(i.e. along the edge of the clinometer). Now you set the clinometer dial with E-W aligned with the N/S white marks of the plastic base. Turn the clinometer on its edge so that you can view the dip measuring tool (which is on a swing in the centre of the dial) Align the clino perpendicular (at 90degrees) to the strike line you have made in the snow and lay the edge onto the slope. You can now read the exact angle of the slope (the dip) along the fabled fall line.

This explanation may sound tricky but really it isn't!



Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Mon 24-12-07 10:20; edited 1 time in total
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The problem with just using your eyes is that it is hard sometimes to decide the exact slope orientationa dn thus where the steepest fall line is. You may thus pick and apparent dip and this will always be less than the true dip. Anyhow .... buy a clino they are only about £20 and they can also be used to orientate off piste with a good map but without GPS which can be useful.
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Just a thought .... but wouldn't it be possible to create maps of areas which have slopes greater than 30 degrees clearly marked. As I would guess that the snow base would lie uniformally on avg on the underlying rock slope. These wouldn't be exact but would certainly give a guidance as to the dange areas of the mountains.
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I have a disabled person dependent on me being well. We managed with considerable difficulty, and a lot of good will from friends when I ruptured my achilles tendon. It has made me more careful when I ski, but I do still ski off-piste. One way I have tried to reduce the risk is to improve my technique by having lessons with easiski. A side benefit of this has been increased enjoyment of skiing generally.
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plectrum wrote:
Just a thought .... but wouldn't it be possible to create maps of areas which have slopes greater than 30 degrees clearly marked. As I would guess that the snow base would lie uniformally on avg on the underlying rock slope. These wouldn't be exact but would certainly give a guidance as to the dange areas of the mountains.


I would have thought it's a useful service that resorts could offer - with an appropriate warning in big letters to say that it does not indicate safe and unsafe areas, simply a guide to help you read the terrain.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
All risks certainly cannot be avoided. We are subject to thousands of risks every second of our existence.

Of those that can be avoided, some can't be avoided without disproportionate trouble or loss, eg driving, arguably flying, occupational hazards - soldier, arguably professional extreme skiers. Of those that can be avoided, some can be avoided without disproportionate trouble or loss. However this is entirely subjective and for the individual to decide unless it's recognised as highly dangerous no matter who you are (like truly kack yer pants extreme pros still dying, as opposed to fat middle aged wannabe extreme "light" or recreational off pisters) in which case it's still for the individual to decide. However to then not avoid the latter kind of avoidable risk when you have dependants becomes selfish.

The fact that the risk level which some people may wish to mitigate against is extremely low comes into it in the disproportionate trouble or loss bit, ie if it's relatively easy and painless (emotionally, psychologically, socially, physically, financially etc etc) to avoid or mitigate, you may as well do it anyway (as long as it doesn't itself confer yet another additional perhaps unforeseen risk), but there's certainly no strong case for it. And of course risk is not just about likelihood, it's also about how severe the actual consequence eg death as opposed to a sprained thumb. Purely in my judgement or opinion!
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As a married man and with children I can understand people in the similar situation on taking risks.

A unattached single person does not have to consider the welfare of the people dependent on his well being and can dismiss the thought of his parents to do whatever he likes.

A married person with dependent children tend to minimize the risk exposure for the sake of the loved ones dependent on his well being. It is a kind of love when you don't want to hurt the one you love. Getting oneslef injuried or killed "unnecesarily" is a way of hurting someone you love.

Thus I don't think many skiers participating in extremely skiing are at a stage where they are married with a full family of their own.
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Kramer, I agree Very Happy
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
saikee wrote:
Thus I don't think many skiers participating in extremely skiing are at a stage where they are married with a full family of their own.

Don't know about skiing. But reading "Into Thin Air", many of the people who died on Everest have families.

Come to think of that, I believe, includes most of the Everest "pioneers" whom the whole world now hold as "heros".
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Astronauts as well.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
abc wrote:
Also, how does Mrs. DB feel? Is she worried? Or is she happy you're "out of her hair" from time to time?


Mrs DB doesn't ski offpiste and yes she is worried but not panicking. Mrs DB's family are financially stable enough to support her should something happen to me but I'd hate my kids to become fatherless just because I was out there enjoying myself. I'd hate to miss them growing up too, missing an afternoons offpiste skiing last week was more than made up for watching my daughter in her first ski school race (which she won). I'm no Doug Coombs or Alison Hargreaves and have considered from time to time if the risk is worth it. My current thinking is that as long as I try to minimize the risks as much as posible without killing the fun I'm being fair.
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Quote:

Thus I don't think many skiers participating in extremely skiing are at a stage where they are married with a full family of their own.
I remember an Austrian ski instructor taking our group down a black run used as a downhill course. We'd all been nervous about a black run, and he didn't tell us it was, till we stopped for a break half way down. We had, of course, all done neat duckling turns in his tracks, about a zillion of them. He looked back up the piste, and said that, on a downhill race, our resting place would be the racers first turn. We were suitably aghast and asked him if he could do that. "Absolutely not", he said. "I don't have the technical skills - the difference between my ability, and those guys' is much greater than the difference between mine and yours. But, even if I could do it, I certainly wouldn't. I have a wife, three kids and a mortgage. Those guys are nutters".

There are some married nutters, of course. Happy Christmas. Don't get depressed. Christmas is a VERY bad time for depression. wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DB, sounds reasonable to me. Smile

pam w, a sensible and unselfish ski instructor? Whatever next! wink
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Quote:

missing an afternoons offpiste skiing last week was more than made up for watching my daughter in her first ski school race

So DB, it's not just about selfishness with regard your family, after all. YOU would be the one who'd missing out a lot if you were to get hurt skiing off-piste! Wink And no amount of insurance is going to help YOU. Sad

Quote:

I have all the safety gear (inc an ABS rucksack - used once in the shop) and have done a bit of avie awareness etc

Now you've identified how much there is to lose, perhaps you should learn even more about avalanche safety. So you can make more "informed" decision on whether to ski off-piste or not on any particular time & place. YOU are the one who want to come back at the end of every off-piste excursion.
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Just wonder.

Would a successful guy working in the City (of London) taking home GBP 0.5 million each year or managing his own business of a couple of billions would settle for the 30-degree slopes and find alternative excitements by racing a large yacht or driving the latest Ferrari or Aston Martin in a circuit, instead of go extreme skiing?
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saikee wrote:
Just wonder.

Would a successful guy working in the City (of London) taking home GBP 0.5 million each year or managing his own business of a couple of billions would settle for the 30-degree slopes and find alternative excitements by racing a large yacht or driving the latest Ferrari or Aston Martin in a circuit, instead of go extreme skiing?


I'm struggling to keep up with paying for offpiste safety equipment and an expanding family but whatever you do with your money is your business. Toofy Grin
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abc wrote:
Now you've identified how much there is to lose, perhaps you should learn even more about avalanche safety. So you can make more "informed" decision on whether to ski off-piste or not on any particular time & place. YOU are the one who wants to come back at the end of every off-piste excursion.


Yes I plan to take another avalanche course sometime this season but I doubt that will ever match a fully qualified guide's experience who has seen the season develop and has a better idea of what hidden dangers are under the surface (hence the reason I tend to use guides). I'm forever looking for books with avalanche info in too - suggestions welcome.

I guess my family might want me to come back at the end of every off-piste excursion too, but maybe the insurance policy is better than I anticipated Wink
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