 Poster: A snowHead
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I have a great photo to ilistrate above, but I don't know how to paste it here  Can soeone tell me how please?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skiday wrote: |
Always strap your poles as above (1st paragraph). |
I know Skiday means that you should always use this way of strapping on your poles, but just in case any of our learner skiers misread it, you do not always strap on your poles. Unstrap them when skiing in trees and , of course when using uplift. In both instances this is so that if a pole gets caught in something, you can let go.
Skiday, did you use the old one for children of the rabbit (two fingers representing its ears) coming out of its burrow to show them how to put on the straps? It always seemed to work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skiday, I teach my newbie skier friends to use no straps. Far safer and if you start like that then it becomes natural from day one.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I teach my newbie skier friends to use no straps. Far safer and if you start like that then it becomes natural from day one.
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I disagree. It is not safer. It is only better than strapping your poles incorrectly! It is not safe to have loose poles flying arround.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skiday, I haven't seen any in the shops lately, but the straps on my ancient ski poles are two bits held together by a clasp which releases under pressure. Perfect.
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Hey, that's me  Fame at last - Yoda making an example of me!
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| waynos wrote: |
| , I teach my newbie skier friends to use no straps. Far safer and if you start like that then it becomes natural from day one. |
I always start complete beginners without poles for various reasons, but teach them how to put their straps on as Skiday describes before venturing forth from the nursery slopes.
As to the safety or otherwise of using straps, I use straps but make sure I put them on correctly and that they are loose enough to be no more than a way of keep them on my wrists if I let go my poles. (Edit: That was a dreadful way of putting it - see the following postings!) With your hand coming up through the loop and grasping the handle with the strap between your hand and the pole, you can let go the pole in a fall and the pole is loosely held by the strap to your wrist without putting any strain on the thumb or fingers. The advantage then being that when you pick yourself up your pole isn't a tedious climb away up the slope. That being said, these injuries still occur: is this because the skier has held tightly on to the pole in a fall - regardless of whether he/she is using the straps? And if you hold your pole incorrectly with your thumb wrapped round the pole instead of pointing obliquely up the side of the handle, would this not increase the risk?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 30-12-07 14:53; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I didn't really intend to change this thread from 'allowing the pole to touch the snow' into a debate about 'strapping pole vs. not strapping poles'. It is my opinion and that of the teaching profession on the whole that strapping CORECTLY is best, and I can give many varied reasons why. But it is difficult to prove anything conclusively about safety. I know that there are people who are convinced that to drive a car without a seatbelt is safer and nothing you can say will change their minds. The argument for straps/no straps is less clear cut than seat belts, but after explaining all the benefits to a student I have never seen a single one go back to not strapping.
But, on this occasion, my reason for mentioning strapping was not concerned with safety at all. My point was (is) that if you strap correctly, and not
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that they are loose enough to be no more than a way of keep them on my wrists if I let go my poles.
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but adjusted so that when you slacken the lower three fingers the strap continues to give support to the hand while you grip with just the thumb and forefinger. This then means that the pole can gently brush the snow without putting any weight on it. If the strap is not there or is too long, if you loosen you grip, the pole handle will slip up through your hand, effectively shortening the length of the pole (and making you look silly if you continue to hold it the wrong place as many novices do). This compels you to keep a tight grip on the pole and leads to a more stiff and less flowing pole movement.
Cheers
Skiday
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OK. This photo shows a novice with the poles strapped incorrectly (as shown in blow-up) and gripping the poles very tightly, leaning back, and putting weight on the pole to prevent falling backwards. If you are touching the snow with the pole like this, it is not good.
Thanks Yoda for the advice on posting photos.
Skiday
www.skiday.co.uk
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Setting aside the safety issue as inconclusive and accepting that correct strapping is indeed what we teach, I have to confess to a bit of sloppy writing there. As you say, Skiday. the strap is adjusted to support the hand and unfortunately I have probably given the impression that you might as well just have a half a metre of string so that you don't lose your poles! I will rephrase what I had in mind without using loose expressions like "loose". Correctly adjusted, when you let go of the pole there is then enough strap free (because the hand has gone up through the loop) for the pole to swing from your wrist, lessening the likelihood of a thumb injury. But the correct adjustment is so important to good pole use. And if it isn't supporting the hand, aren't you risking damaging your thumb anyway from repetitive strain?
Thanks for picking that bit of careless writing up! I will now retire and write out 100 times "I must think before I write".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Assuming i know how to hold ski poles  the two things that helped me this year are
#1 - increase the edge angle of the ski to to snow instead of increasing the pressure on the edges.
#2 - The less pressure i apply to the skis the better i ski
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ccl, skiday, do you feel that in balance the risk (both in chance of occurrence and severity of consequence) to the experienced skier of thumb injury from wearing the strap, or to the experienced skier of losing hold of his/her pole, is the greater?
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Poster: A snowHead
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skiday, The ski instructor we had said that 'all the good skiers touch the snow with their uphill pole' and proceeded to point out loads of skiers that did it. He wasn't advocating it as a 'be all and end all' just that it would give you a sense of the steepness of the piste - a subconscious thing. And that it would be useful in poor light. I must admit I was doubtful at first, having tripped myself up with my poles when I started skiing. Why would the ski instructor give us such advice? I did have a habit of swinging my pole around a before I did a pole plant, but my husband doesn't. The instructor was a German (in the Austrian Arlberg ski school) - perhaps it's a German thing? However, I've since looked at loads of photos of people skiing - even extremely steep runs - and their uphill poles are in the snow. Certainly the picture you produced is all wrong because the chap has a bad position leaning into the hill. I don't do this, honestly. The ski instructors I've had have all commented on my good ski position. Why would this ski instructor want to alter it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges
For my part I would say that if you are holding your pole strapped correctly as I suggest, your chance of injury to your thumb is either the same, or only very slightly increased than not strapping, but much less than strapping incorrectley. A loose pole on the slope is also not good and could cause an accident to someone else, nor is having to climb/walk back up to get it when lost. But not many people realise that strapping correctly can improve your pole swing and plant and therefore your skiing overall. It is the goal to get your skiing to be as good as it can be rather than worrying about what might or might not happen should you have a fall. If you are skiing better, you might not fall at all. Most people who tell of broken thumbs don't aways say if they were strapping them correctly or not (a lot of people don't know the difference) and therefore give people a reason to say 'better not to strap at all'.
Incidently I have broken my left thumb, but that was from jumping 20 feet or so (expecting it to be about 10 feet) and I don't think not strapping would have changed anything. I ALWAYS strap, even through trees.
Skiday
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 30-12-07 21:13; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skiday, I've always used them correctly and enjoyed the support they provided but since spraining my thumb in a fall with weight going onto thumb caught on strap last season have skied without straps. I'm considering putting my hand through the straps from above down and gripping just the handle (ie the wrong way), or putting just my fingers through the straps and then gripping both strap and handle, as I think the risk to my thumbs would be lessened by either method.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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erica2004 - ski schools, like religions perhaps ,
often seem to suggest that their way is the correct way. Anyone who has had lessons in more than one country or more than one decade knows that it isn't that simple.
I would regard your instructors advice as designed to be useful to you at your stage on the pistes you are on. Dragging the outside pole may be an accidental consequence of some skiers technique, but I am not convinced it is a sign by which you can identify a good skier, or a useful tip to do more than correct dodgy hand position.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I'm considering putting my hand through the straps from above down and gripping just the handle (ie the wrong way), or putting just my fingers through the straps and then gripping both strap and handle, as I think the risk to my thumbs would be lessened by either method.
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Or as an alternative you could place both hands over your eyes and then you wont see bad things coming towards you!
OK, I apologise for that but look. I have explained in quite some detail not only how I think straps should be put on but also WHY (at least some of the reasons why). I think that whenever anyone tells you that you should do something in any walk of life, they should be able to qualify it with why. If any one give me advice and I ask 'why should I do such and such?' and they say 'because that's how I was told to do it' or 'that's how it has always been done' then I will be more likely to disregard that advice than If I am given a good reason and I feel I can't argue a better reason not to do such and such. But there are always people who will not sway from their point on view no matter how convincing the evidence to the contrary may be.
I am convinced for logical reasons of all I have said on the subject. If you want to differ that's absolutely fine by me. All I ask is that everyone understands the pros & cons for and against and is allowed to make up their own minds rather than simply being told 'Straps are dangerous man, leave them off'. At the end of the day, all teachers and racers strap correctly most of the time. (Actually, come to think of it, at the end of the day most ski-teachers are getting drunk and trying to get laid – can’t speak for the racers - Ill have to check)
I don't think I can say anything more on this subject (and I don't think anyone wants me to either) so will bow out from this string now. Or I can meet you in Breckenridge Jan 6th to 20th or Soll/Scheffau Feb 15th to 29th to discuss this over a Glüwine.
But there's nothing wrong with good healthy discussion, so keep knockin' away at it chaps
Skiday
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I won't prolong the strap discussion other than to say that like Skiday, I use and teach the use of straps as an aid to good skiing (plus the avoidance of having to trek halfway up the mountain to collect one that stuck in the snow). I do take the straps off in trees, however, even though I want really good pole plants - it's a matter of balance between maybe losing some effectiveness in the plant and getting a pole caught. Personal choice, that's all.
I think it would be worth taking another look at the picture Skiday posted to illustrate incorrect wearing of straps. What do you think is the most important thing you see in that photo? No, not the straps, not the weight way back, not any technicalities needing to be developed.
None of these: it's the big smile on the skier's face. This is one happy punter who is having fun. That's the vital technique for skiing improvement which we have to keep hold of in the middle of technical discussions like these. 
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skiday, ccl, you've both put forward sensible and cogent reasons for using straps properly and I'm sure most who know how to use them properly will choose to do so. All I was saying is that the chance and severity of consequence of losing a pole may be considered by some to be a worthwhile risk when compared to the chance and severity of consequence of damaging a thumb.
skiday, I'm sure if we met over a gluhwein we'd be able to find something more to talk about than how to put on straps but I'll be in Obertauern end of Feb!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wow, can’t quite believe some of the things I’m reading here. Some of you are actually ski instructors?
First thing, on the pole strap issue. There is no right way (actually, that’s the correct answer for most of these questions. It comes down to a question of Style and Preference. At least if you are an excellent skier…)
Two: Well … there is no right way except, NEVER USE POLE STRAPS IN THE BACKCOUNTY OR OFF-PISTE. All caps because it’s a major safety issue and one novice off-piste skiers often make. In deep powder, an avalanche, or a tree well, pole straps mean you might be unable to move your hands which can lead to suffocation: if you can’t move your hands you can’t clear snow that’s in your mouth or nose when buried. Even taking a tumble in deep snow can result is suffocation if your hands are tied up in pole straps and no one is there to quickly help. If you don’t know what I’m talking about … you likely haven’t ever been in that type of really deep snow. Poles and straps can prevent easy movement when in a tight situation. In avalanche conditions or down a tree well, it can be even more vital to be able to quickly get rid of poles.
Third: Dragging uphill pole, sigh … if you’ve ever carved down a groomer or a steep alpine glacier line in powder at HIGH SPEED you would understand the benefits of dragging an uphill pole. It does a few things, most vitally - helps stabilize your stance and balance. In particular if you encounter unexpected changes in the snow quality. It’s almost like an insects antenna, providing feedback on the snow quality, pitch, firmness, slickness, and other subtle (non-linguistic) bits of information gathering. It’s also, simply joyful! Nothing like ripping a deep carve at high speed - the dragging pole - it’s one of the ways you make a connection and “see” the mountainside. After all, how do you “see” the slope you are skiing on if not with your body? Oh right - I forgot, most of you fall apart when you need to ski in white out conditions too. Hmm…
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Bots again 
One for Hamster investigation
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Esopus, this discussion is 16 years old.
Welcome to Snowheads
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@red 27, yep I did try to ding a hidden link
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Thanks all - nothing in the post apart from the auto link to Movement which is done by the forum software.
@Esopus, maybe try something more recent? Several of the posters in this thread have left the forum, one way or another 
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You know it makes sense.
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I concur. Watching with interest.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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An extra take on the 'dragging the pole' thing. Not a criticism of the OP but an additional perspective.
I was told by a very experienced coach (British Youth Team) that using your uphill pole to get a sense of inclination (mentioned in the first post) can go badly wrong for implicit perception when the pole suddenly is NOT touching the ground for any reason. Then, the tendency is to try to get the pole in contact with the ground (thus leaning back) and immediately being more concerned about what's behind you than what is in front. Which is VERY bad when you are in the steeps in a no fall zone.
On 'look and you will go' - this may be a reverse of the 'magnetic tree and rock syndrome' in mountain biking: 'Look at the tree: hit the tree - look at the rock: hit the rock'. For sure, look at where you want to go. That will be where you will tend to go. Use peripheral vision to monitor and navigate hazards - essential in single track and DH mountain-biking.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Esopus wrote: |
Wow, can’t quite believe some of the things I’m reading here. Some of you are actually ski instructors?
First thing, on the pole strap issue. There is no right way (actually, that’s the correct answer for most of these questions. It comes down to a question of Style and Preference. At least if you are an excellent skier…)
Two: Well … there is no right way except, NEVER USE POLE STRAPS IN THE BACKCOUNTY OR OFF-PISTE. All caps because it’s a major safety issue and one novice off-piste skiers often make. In deep powder, an avalanche, or a tree well, pole straps mean you might be unable to move your hands which can lead to suffocation: if you can’t move your hands you can’t clear snow that’s in your mouth or nose when buried. Even taking a tumble in deep snow can result is suffocation if your hands are tied up in pole straps and no one is there to quickly help. If you don’t know what I’m talking about … you likely haven’t ever been in that type of really deep snow. Poles and straps can prevent easy movement when in a tight situation. In avalanche conditions or down a tree well, it can be even more vital to be able to quickly get rid of poles.
Third: Dragging uphill pole, sigh … if you’ve ever carved down a groomer or a steep alpine glacier line in powder at HIGH SPEED you would understand the benefits of dragging an uphill pole. It does a few things, most vitally - helps stabilize your stance and balance. In particular if you encounter unexpected changes in the snow quality. It’s almost like an insects antenna, providing feedback on the snow quality, pitch, firmness, slickness, and other subtle (non-linguistic) bits of information gathering. It’s also, simply joyful! Nothing like ripping a deep carve at high speed - the dragging pole - it’s one of the ways you make a connection and “see” the mountainside. After all, how do you “see” the slope you are skiing on if not with your body? Oh right - I forgot, most of you fall apart when you need to ski in white out conditions too. Hmm… |
I guess this is what happens when you say to ChatGPT, "write me the perfect first post to make everyone on a ski forum think I'm a condescending cock."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| this is what happens when you say to ChatGPT, "write me the perfect first post to make everyone on a ski forum think I'm a condescending cock." |
Haha! Was it unclear I was being condescending? Sorry, my mistake.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry I’d dived in and missed the zombie thread. We’re going to be in for a rough ride with auto-generated text. It’s bad enough that the press just use bots to scan for stories and then reproduce them with little editorial control but in the social space it’s going to be mental...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I know skiing can be counter intuitive but I don't get having any weight on your uphill pole or any friction from your uphill pole at all. If there is any drag it may come from the flex of the knees pre-turn when carving well.
But then I am a vacation skier so wtf do I know.
I would also like to thank SKIDAY for teaching me how to eat with chopsticks
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FAQ
